that is this week's "last word." week's "last word."

because of donald trump, more than 20 states have abortion bans. >> the impact of this ban will

be felt. not just in florida, but across the southeast. >> former president donald trump did this. >> good evening once again. and let's get excited. i'm stephanie ruhle and we are 186 days away from the election. this week, donald j. trump continued to protest his treatment in this criminal trial here in new york city. while across the nation. protests on the war in gaza extended to more campuses. with our cabinet here. sammy sage, cofounder and chief

creative officer of beches media. this was a crazy week. tapes, donald trump got fined for violating the gag order. another gag order hearing. a lot happened. tom, this morning the judge kind of didn't stick it to donald trump. but, he made it clear because donald trump has been out there this week saying i'm not going to be able to testify because of this gag order. and the judge looked him square in the eye and said you absolutely can. enough of this nonsense. trump will go back out on the trail and say it is the judge's fault. how do you think this whole thing is going? >> well, i am still very worried that we have a prospect for a hung jury here. i'm just very suspicious. >> just need one. >> very suspicious of jurors getting on there saying they don't have an opinion of donald trump. i have never met a new yorker who does not have an opinion of donald trump. there are two lawyers there.

and, if either of them are of a camp that favors donald trump's future, that is something that is going to upset the normal dynamic of jury room having two lawyers on the jury. so i think the downside here is worse than the upside potential. because conviction here in this particular case, i don't really think is going to matter that much. when you look back at the hollywood access tape which happened at a much more important time in the political career of donald trump and was at issue today in the trial, that didn't doubt. i don't think talking about the issues like this now are really going to upset donald trump's selection. >> if you are alvin bragg, alvin bragg would say i'm doing this because donald trump broke

the law. >> that's fine. but what we have to worry about the donald trump coming back as president and anything that would help his case in a hung jury here, i think he would scream for the rest of the campaign. >> i've been exonerated. >> there was nothing here. it was a ridiculous case. and, new york prosecutors that couldn't find anything better to do with their time. this is really an issue that i'm worried we will have to come front much more of a downside than an upside. >> how is the prosecution doing? >> i tend to agree with tom. i think that there are a lot of people saying this was a slam dunk for the prosecution. i think hope hicks made a compelling case for the fact that donald trump also was concerned about melania's feelings. whether or not we believe that. >> sister, please. >> but she put it out there.

and if you have that juror who says, you know, this calls into question this argument that the hush money payment was strictly a business engagement and an engagement designed to win the election. she provided a counter argument. >> what is a woman who was glued to donald trump's side. people very rarely heard her speak. there she was. didn't even make eye contact with them. supposedly hasn't spoken to him for a couple of years. what did you think about it? >> i think it must have been very freightenning for her. there are many accounts he is an intimidating person sitting as far apart as we are from her and i imagine she has some sort of emotional attachment to this phase in her life. i imagine there were some things that happened that she has seen that have led her to not speak with him anymore. and i can't imagine that it was

easy for her to be able to give a completely honest accounting of what had happened. >> trump has been frustrated with his lawyers. he wants them to be tougher. like roy cone who was disbarred in disgrace. >> i think on hope hicks on the emotional aspect, i think that boosts her credibility. and on the contrary. >> crying boosts her credibility? being fragile? >> no. i think her essentially showing that this was an emotional moment for her to be on the stand under oath in front of donald trump like you said. she had an emotional connection. she has a history. but it was actually compelling because i think she did give evidence that was helpful to the prosecution by saying under no circumstances did michael cohen do this under the goodness of his heart. out of his own volition.

that he definitely, akin to that, this was for donald. this was not something michael would do in a benevolent nature. and we have the david pecker testimony. really tying this to the fact that this is an election interference case. which i think makes him more compelling. indicating that this was an effort to keep information from the voting public. she said it was a crisis in the campaign after the access hollywood tape trial. >> the theater on how donald

trump performs to me is more interesting than the evidence of trial. >> but do you not think there is any theater of hope hicks? she was crying, she was fragile. she was the person one inch away from him all four years. right? during child separation. during charlottesville. january 6th. i'm not sure i buy this fragile engenue up there. she sat beside him the whole time. >> that is why i think it is a difficult moment. think of what she must have experienced. willingly, yes. but still. that doesn't, a lot of people have trouble with a sort of, i don't want to get into the cross this line. but an abusive sort of dynamic. a toxic dynamic. >> maybe she was all in.

>> she is testifying against trump. she is a good prosecution witness. but as i said, in the end of the day, i don't think that is what really matters here. it is trump theatrics. and what he was trying to do early on was provoke the judge into really hitting him with a contempt charge hard that might have involved going to jail. so, for some hours, so, he could really play the card of i'm being gagged here. i can't speak. put the former president of the united states in jail for speaking his mind. i think in the last couple of days, he may have backed off of the thought that is helpful. the reason for that has to do with all the protests. that chaos. in that world hurts biden in his mind. he's the guy who supposedly is going to be law and order and

control. well if you are out of control yourself to the point that a judge has to jail you because you can't behave in a way that is within the decorum of the court system, then, who are you to say that you are the guy who is going to bring control here? >> you are bringing something deep here. >> backed away from that provocation because of that. >> my view, does any of it even matter? whether it is a hung jury, whether he gets convicted? everyone is just going to double down as they always do. you have republicans going to be like oh this is such a problem. i'm concerned. ten minutes later oh, they are back down at mar-a-lago paying for his meal. it is really just my fear is none of it gets to anybody. and people don't have clear information access. and, it is just hard for people to get out of their silo. >> steph i want you to comment.

on wednesday, trump was on the campaign trail and what did he do? he told reporters he will not necessarily accept the election results if he doesn't like them. somewhere in the back of our mind we assumed he would do that. but trump always tells you what he is going to do. everything he said he was going to do. the 2025 project. it very clearly spells out what is going to happen if there is a trump administration. and similarly, when trump says he will not accept the results of the election, we should be repaired for the fact he will not accept the results of the election. it is plain as day. he is going to do exactly what he says.

>> and it will be a different approach to election denial. you have to stay away from the courts. can you deny the elections and not have it subject to court review? and the big difference everybody has to pay attention to is that you have ♪ johnson as speaker, not nancy pelosi. and the fact that the republicans control the house is significant in this respect. the democrats have a good shot. but, it is the previous congress, our current congress that certifies house races. and, it could be something, i'm sure they thought of this. if there are some close races that the democrats look like they have won, but it would turn control the house of the democrats, they don't certify. and then you end up on january 3rd with the republicans in

control. january 6th, you have the republicans and this is a huge issue. a parliamentary tactic which would mean that the electoral count format which was supposed to solve all of this to make sure an election couldn't be stolen by congress. one problem. those rules have to be adopted by the house meaning, the house. it is a new house every time. if they don't put the implementing rules before the house, you have a situation where they could reject the vote in close states because they have now stolen the house through election denial. >> if we do not, serving vodka when tom rogers is here, we are all going down. >> this is really serious and has to be paid attention. >> the democrats a few months from now, are they going to

severely regret it if they end up saving mike johnson? marjorie taylor greene is trying to oust him and democrats could be the one who keep him in that position. if everything plays out in this deeply draconian way, the way tom is predicting, are democrats going to rue the day they helped this guy? >> there is always the risk of someone worse than mike johnson if that is even imaginable. that is what they could do. but what it comes down to is. >> this campaign is so much smarter. >> congress takes office before. we have been talking about it with project 2025. they have essentially created. i know you had sam jacobs on.

he mentioned this ideological intellectual legal framework that project 2025 skit is doing. like that key and peele skit like obama had the anger trance later. they are taking trump's ravings and codifying it into calm policy that can get achieved. i know we were talking about the dismantling of agencies and the purging of civil servants. they have the plan to do so. and that is the other side of this. purging civil servants. reimpreimplementing f. the dystopian future every american should be aware of. >> another f is in my mind now. nobody is going anywhere. when we return, protests on college campuses and what it could mean for the 2024

election. and our mvps of the week in a very special one. for me, to remember those who served this country. when our night cap in the 11th hour continues. the 11th hour continues.

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thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. business. and our california lawmakers it's not a nine-to-five proposition. it's all day and into the night. it's all the things that keep this world turning. the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. and check in. they all choose the advanced network solutions and round the clock partnership from comcast business. see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. it was a busy week. pro palestinian protests continued on college campuses. and some administrators decided they had had enough. in the case of columbia and ucla, called in law enforcement to clear out encampments. over 2,000 people have been

arrested. this has been crazy. stephanie, are you surprised about how quickly everything escalated this week from the size of the protest, the responses? >> yeah. i think i am a little surprised. mostly because you had students who were, it is a pressure cooker situation. and you have young people who are feeling incredibly disaffected. you have young people i think a couple of articles have pointed out this class of 2024, these were the kids who covid, covid seniors, they didn't get a proper graduation when they graduated from high school. they will probably not get an in-person graduation this year depending on the campuses they are on. so this is a group of young people who are incredibly disaperfected.

you have outside forces coming in. and, i think the fact they were riled up was one thing. i was a little surprised by the swiftness with which the administrations sought to quell the dissent. >> tom, the protesters are demanding that the universities, the endowments divest from any investments in israel. on its face it sounds like they could just do that. this is really, really complicated. we are talking billions and billions of dollars. and it is highly liquid. it is difficult to do. and they are so angry with universities for not doing it. is that one of the issues that this is not necessarily a demand that can just get solved for. and in many cases the university doesn't necessarily control the endowment. >> right. well. i think the demand is totally

off base. i don't think there is a broad humanitarian viewpoint they are after here. if that was the case, we would hear something about ukraine. the columbia professors talk about why israel? why not all kinds of inhumane treatment by china and korea? because u.s. policy is to support israel. it is one that we are involved in in terms of our foreign policy. well, ukraine were heavily ohm meshed in. and immeshed in. and all kinds of innocent life there. and you are talking passing legislation to help ukraine. and not a peep out of any university about civilians slaughtered there. so if you really really look at this it is hard to not think

there is a lot of antisemitic undertone. i question how much of it is broad humanitarian interest. because you can't have ukraine happening side by side with the slaughter and yes, genocide there with russian forces slaughtering soldiers trying to protect civilians who have little no cover from air raids and not a peep of humanitarian interest helping there. >> this is obviously so loaded. >> you are giving a preach face to tom there. >> no. no. oh i didn't mean to. it is really such a complicated issue and i think part of this is the grief of these students who have not had any sort of outlet. they are so disconnected. they have not had a normal college experience. but aside from that, there is something about israel that definitely riles people up. and i think what scares me the

most is the broad chasm between the way people talk about how this protest, what this protest was, so you have some people saying oh, it is this kumbaya wood stock environment. and then you hear there are jews saying i cannot get to my class because they are physically barring me. and the nypd came out and said there is quite a large proportion of the people who were arrested who are not students over 30 years old. not from new york state. and who have been arrested multiple times. so, i'm sort of eager to get to the part where we understand what really happened here. what extent of it was outside agitation and the conditions that made the students really susceptible to something blowing up in this way. >> the thing that scares me as an employer is that these young people are now going to be coming into the work force. and i'm not talking about

protesters specifically. but this whole disaffected generation. the fact they are a generation that is more depressed than any of the generation before. they are a generation that has more screen time than any other generation before. less social skills. so these young people are coming into a work force where we see incredibly high levels of disengagement among young people and i don't know how much care and feeding it is going to require to get these otherwise incredibly intelligent young people up to speed to function in our workplaces. >> i wanted to just make a quick point. on the difference between i think the outrage around

ukraine and israel is these students feel that we have influence over israel as opposed we don't have influence over russia, right? so there is one point. >> we have a certain ability to resist russia in a big way to try to help civilian population that is being killed without protection. and not a peep. not a peep. and there is something really off about that. >> and i just want to say, i have outrage over ukraine as well and a lot of these students do. but i actually know, i have a really close friend who is jewish and is a student. in ucla, a grad student. and, who was at the indian encampment. and he said all he showed to me was the students were peacefully protesting. there are these two dualing narratives of what's going on, on the ground there. and you have the anecdotal extrapolations.

yes there is anti-semitism and some of those are outside agitators. we also need to approach it with empathy and humility and humanizing what these students are going through. because some of them have real righteous indignation about what they feel is going on in gaza. and of coursely, october 7th was absolutely horrific and unacceptable and i think what we have to be able to do is hold space for those who are in those protests that are peaceful as well as condemning the sides of it that are inexcusable. >> now you have to add the complication if you are president biden, of the fact that donald trump is telling anyone who will listen these are biden's protests. biden wants this to happen. how does president biden thread this nearly near. >> this is where it becomes a real issue. biden has gotten so much flak

from these protesters for his policies that are protecting israel. and when you say like why israel? why is that what animates people? we are looking at the culmination of, this is not fully organic. we are looking at a culmination of years of irgc propaganda that has really tried to get people on the side of hamas. and that is something that students are not necessarily fully aware of this entire machine that is behind what they are protesting. >> that's a great point. because the point of universities is to educate. clearly, this issue, middle east, israel, has hit a chord. and with really rare exception, i have not seen a university say we are canceling classes today. we will have mandatory education sessions on the history of israel, the history of the middle east. history of the holocaust and how we got to where we are today. so you can have students who instead of chanting things that

do sound as if they are supportive of abolishing israel and genocide dallas wings acts against israel. maybe they would understand what was going on. but a university not trying to serve its role in education under these circumstances rather than trying to negotiate for three weeks with a bunch of people that they should have cleared tents from after day one is kind of ridiculous. i want to say, though, as a new yorker, the nypd was great. mvp credit to the nypd. the men in blue did their job here in a way that was quick, efficient, professional, without violence. and i think they get credit for that. >> why did they need the nypd? >> because they broke the law. in the first instance. >> did you see the inside of hamilton hall? >> i'm talking about the week prior. when they first called the nypd

in. before they were occupying. >> why did they need to bring in police to clear a student protests? >> because in many einsteins it wasn't just students. there were a lot of people not students there. the universities are in charge of these students. if it is filled with non- students, you have two kids in college. so think about all of those parents who sent their children away to new york city to college. that school has to be in charge of that and parents could be saying where is law enforcement? what's happening? it is just so complicated. as a parent of college students, how do you see this? >> i have to say when i look at this. these are babies. young people not fully formed. and their development was arrested more by covid. those are my kids so when i see

these pictures of these young people up against a police line, you know, i get a little choked up because one of them could be by kids. and so, at the same time, you know, i have been in forums with university presidents. and having, listening to parents of all backgrounds talk about the safety of their children. and their conditions about the safety of their children. i will stand up for the rights of young people to protest every day of the week. >> especially universities which are about free education presentation. it is when it turns into something else it's a problem. your point about biden is the right point. this is really tough for him. when you look at polls of how

would youth vote look like it was breaking for biden before october 7th, and what it looks like now. it looks like it will be tough to get the kind of turnout from the youth vote that really helped put him over the line in key swing states. >> we have to go to free speech to speech you pay for. everyone is staying put. when we come back, our night cap returns with the mvps of the week. tom already gave us a preview of the men in blue, you do not want to miss it. the 11th hour and the night cap will be right back. right back.

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our night cap is still here with our mvps of the week. >> i'm here with blue. they look great in blue. my mvp is the men in blue an orange. the new york knicks. and particularly jalen brunson. last night, unbelievable performance. taking the first round of the playoffs against the 76ers earlier in the week at the garden. 20,000 people screaming. mvp. mvp. he earned it this week. >> they were also screaming f you to joel embidd. >> my mvp of the week are the asian american ceos . you have three of the four most valuable companies in the world right now, run by asian americans. and, i think that is something to celebrate. >> it sure is.

>> yeah. i told you producers, my runner up was the hormone melatonin. but my actual mvp is the time magazine reporter eric cortel h lessa who took donald to task and didn't mince words. called it a potential imperial presidency. that kind of journalism speaks truth to power and says what it is in a straightforward way is necessary and powerful especially in this really fractured media environment. >> now donald trump finds himself on the cover. he was pushing this interview and so was the biden campaign. this time in history when things are so fractured t same article and piece of information, these two opponents see thing ins a totally different way in a

country that way. did you read the article? i'm assuming you did. >> yeah. >> as somebody who spent a lot of my time in magazines, what i have discovered is you can write an article and people bring their own stuff to it. i have written negative articles about companies and they said it is great. >> trump brought his own crazy and people interpret it as they chose. yours, my sweet? >> mine is the man vs bear meme. we pose a question on the internet. if you were walking in the woods would you rather encounter a man or a bear? a lot of people are saying bear. >> over a man? >> yeah. that is the overwhelming response. and yeah. and people are kind of giving their take on it. but what i think is most interesting is this arose a week after harvey weinstein's conviction was overturned. the fact this is a conversation people are having. would you rather meet a fellow

human man or a bear? >> i picked a bear. >> you picked a bear? >> look. they are supposed to be in the woods. the man isn't. and there is a formula to deal with bears i think. >> mine will be a little different. so to you all, thank you all. i absolutely loved yours. but when we come back, you will meet mine and hear, they are so amazing that i had to bring them in. you don't want to miss it when the 11th hour on the night cap continues. ight cap continues. for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away.

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target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. it is now time for the mvps of the week. mine, at least. and i'm saving the best for last. the month of may marks the start of military appreciation month. and i cannot think of a better way to celebrate by honoring four brave veterans as my mvps this week. our next guest, all served during the vietnam war. three of them flew together as members of the gun slingers squadron. for the first time in over 16 years these men were reunited in a brand new campaign. i'm honored to bring them together as my mvps . so let's introduce them. former navy commander jack gillette. former navy lieutenant, jim lloyd, former navy lieutenant,

bill moyer and major ellister lake. gentlemen, i'm so honored to have you all here. i should mention our parent company nbc universal are owned by comcast. that is how i know about this extraordinary campaign. but tell me what it was like to do this. first, for the three of you to be reunited. what was this like? >> absolutely wonderful. it's like we never left. we didn't have to act and pretend. because we were at a reunion. and it was so natural. >> what was it like for you? and to do this project with kathryn bigelow who has dedicated her career to showcases the armed forces. >> it was terrific. seeing these guys after 16 years, because we had seen each other at a reunion 16 years ago. it it was like being back in

the carrier in the ready room swapping sea stories and insulting each other. >> how often do you all stay in touch? what was this like for you? >> i don't think we stay in touch all that much. but, what happened is jim called and wanted to know if we would like to participate. i and so that was the whirlwind. because i think i talked to him on thursday. and on sunday, we were in new york. >> you, you served in the air force. these men were in the navy. how important is it to stay in touch, to stay connected with the people you serve with? >> it is extremely important. as a matter of fact, i started out in the marine corp. my first six years was a marine and i switched over to the air force. but i still keep in touch with a lot of my friends from vietnam. and a lot of my friends in

college that were there so i enjoyed myself. >> jim, your jet was shot down by a missile in vietnam. how did you survive? >> we had been on cruise about four-and-a-half months. it was my second flight. it was getting dark. we were two plane flight. and, we went after trucks moving in south vietnam. to south vietnam. dropped two bombs. when i pulled off, i had two missiles come up at me. i saw the first one and i was able to avoid it. when they go so fast, you try to out turn it. but the second one blew off my left wing and i ejected about 2,000 feet above the ground.

hit the rice paddies. the fun started. i was 21 miles inplanned in a place i was told no americans were ever seen again. it was a transition. and during that six hours i was on the ground, i lost my radios. we had little hand held radios and there is no rescue without them. i had to sneak back to where all these guys were standing and use their voices to determine where i was. and rolled around in the dark and found one. and retreated a second time. i turned the helicopter back the first time because it was too dangerous. and then, one time i was going through the rice paddies and i got up on the little division between the two to make less noise when two soldiers found me. i played dead. they thought i was

incapacitated. when they went to get help about 40 yards away, i got up and took off under hail of gunfire. and all i said on the radio was you can't believe what i just went through. and so the night went like that all night long. finally i brought in a helicopter before daylight. i'm six foot two, i can't hide among the vietnamese in open field. they came in under a hail of gunfire. hooked on the cable to be hauled up. the helicopter was sitting this. landed in the mud. i was holding power to keep from sinking. and i will never forget the image of doug, one of the gunners, he reaches over us. hot gun, this machine gun. he says come on, come on. he grabs the back of my flight suit and pulls me in. and off we went. >> you two were part of the

squadron that rescued jim. >> uh-huh. >> do you remember what went through your minds when you found out he was missing? >> when it first happened, what we hear, we were on a lunch. what we hear is come up boys. we don't know who is down. and they don't make an announcement as to who is down. so you are trying to figure out who it could be. but then it is just trying to do the best you can. and we were armed. we had bombs. but we couldn't pinpoint where he was and we weren't going to throw bombs down there on the chance that we would hit him instead. so we made a number of passes. we were on site for quite a

while. we want offshore. refueled. try to put out fire. they didn't. it was hard to pinpoint who to shoot and who not to shoot. >> what an experience. i mean, what a brotherhood. what does service mean to you? >> well, your shipmates become family. that particular night, i was not on the flight schedule at that time. so, we were just siting in the ready room listening for any information we had. because ultimately we knew our squadron had a downed aircraft. we couldn't do anything about it. you don't just run up and grab

an airplane and go. it's not like the movies. you have to be on a flight schedule. >> how do we as everyday americans, as civilians, we talk about honoring veterans. but we certainly don't do it enough. how can we honor veterans in our daily lives? >> the program came together with xfinity. honoring us as all of us realize it has been over 50 years since we were in vietnam. and when we came home, it was a different scenario. no one wanted us to fight. no one wanted the protection. but freedom doesn't come free. freedom costs. there's a price for freedom. and we all came together to make sure that everybody was able to live that life of freedom. and so, i think we all can say right now, the world is a better place because of us. >> i am so honored you are here with me tonight. thank you so, so much. jack, jim, bill, ellister. thank you for your service,

thank you for joining me tonight. i'm thankful we got to showcase you. >> thank you for having us. >> we'll be right back. >> we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for tuning in. i wish you all a good night. my friend, ari melber is next. and remember, you can watch the night cap most fridays and saturdays. 11:00 p.m. eastern. right here on msnbc. but for now, i'm signing off. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. see you at the end of monday. . r to be home asleep in your bed and have intruders come in and do the unthinkable. i felt like a hand being placed on my mouth.