titillating the way -- i'm going to call him david denison -- keith davidson's testimony is scandalous, but hope hicks may be the more important of a lot of important witnesses. >> i'm going to read you for a little bit the back and forth on pecker. reinforce what you have been saying. do you know pecker? i know him as a publisher of american media. i had been introduced to him. then he says, how much did you -- were you aware of and listen to conversations with pecker and trump? she says, yes, i was there. you were in and out of his office. were you ever there when pecker was there? i don't have recollection of that. it's possible. here is the question. what about the phone call between trump and pecker? she says, yes, one of them i

was, i think, shortly after -- it was publishing a piece about ben carson. i overheard a conversation congratulating him on the great reporting. it was about medical malpractice. there is the direct link between what hope hicks heard, not what she thinks she heard, but what she heard and pecker and trump. thank you so very much. that wraps up the hour for me. thank you for the privilege of your time. andrea mitchell picks up with more news right now. ♪♪ good day, everyone. i'm andrea mitchell in new york. the trump trial is underway. right now, the former

president's close aide, trusted advisor and former white house communications director, hope hicks is on the stand. she no longer has an official role in trump world. has testified to the january 6th house select committee. but hicks was by trump's side throughout his 2016 campaign and for a time when he was serving as president. she potentially has a firsthand account of the alleged crimes her former boss is now charged with. we begin with peter alexander who covered the trump white house and covered hope hicks and know her well, former manhattan district attorney catherine christian on set with me, former prosecutor david henderson and former doj official, mary mccord. peter, explain why hope hicks is so critical to the time line and the prosecution's case potentially. >> reporter: let's start with the fact that hope hicks is about as close to donald trump as any member of his own family.

she was in effect a daughter to donald trump for her time working on the campaign and then here at white house. she said at the top of her testimony she hasn't been in direct contact with him since about 2022, since leaving the white house. she's been engaged. she has a pr company as well working independently. she's critical to the testimony today because she was effectively at donald trump's side for the entirety of the campaign, traveling with him at times when the campaign barely existed, when it was just the two of them. then in the white house, she was one of the most trusted confidantes as well. the reason the president trusted her is because she is someone who is not believed to have any agenda. her advice was just the advice in the former president's best interests, trying to accommodate whatever his desires were. that's why the testimony we are hearing right now, including detailing what she heard between donald trump and david pecker is so critical.

a beginning point to the testimony as they are laying this out before the jurors right now. >> catherine, let's talk about what she's telling the jury, what she could tell the jury, as peter points out, why she's so critical a witness. >> she worked for donald trump, according to her testimony, reported directly to him at the trump organization and during the campaign. she, as a press person does, she dealt with people who had his interviews. she said he was very hands on. she followed his lead. as david pecker said, this is a detail-oriented, not aloof person who is very involved. >> she's being asked about the "access hollywood" tape. she was there. she saw his reaction. this would get to his intent why he was concerned about the tape, which leads up to the motivation

for everything that followed allegedly. >> exactly. clearly, she knew the explosion that that tape caused. she had to deal with that. she saw his reaction. it explains, which the prosecution will say, why it was so important for him to hush up miss daniels. >> mary, one thing hicks was asked is if she's familiar with keith shiller. keith shiller was more than a body. he was a close advisor, but he was there for everything that happened with donald trump. talk to me about the importance of keith shiller in this world. >> again, just like with hope hicks, anyone who is close to trump at the time that's in question, when it comes to the facts that the government is trying to prove, these are important witnesses, because the prosecution -- what's critical is they have to shore up everything that michael cohen is expected to testify about later in this trial.

he is a key witness, of course, to the payments and the coverup of the payments. remember, the charges here are fraudulent business recorders. yet, he has a lot of baggage. he has a lot of bad information that will come out about him. his credibility will be attacked. everyone who had contact with mr. trump, who had contact with mr. cohen, who knows about the arrangement or overheard discussions about the arrangement between cohen and pecker and trump, those are all going to be important witnesses for the government to call. that includes hope hicks. that includes keith shiller and what he knew. >> david, let's talk about the importance of this witness. as a former prosecutor, how you handle this kind of a witness. how important this is to the case. >> you can dell how important it is by the time at which they have chosen to call her. they have chosen to call her on a friday late morning when she's

going to bleed into the afternoon. she's likely the last person on the witness stand. the jury will go home talking about her over the weekend. that's the first thing that stands out. the next thing is, she's my kind of witness. she's the first person i have seen in this trial that i would want to put on the stand. some of the people you had to. my kind of witness gets there to say, i have a job, i have other places to be, i don't want to be here. i'm nervous about being here. i'm only here because i was subpoenaed. i was subpoenaed to tell the truth and that's exactly what i'm going to do. the other panelists have pointed out the real danger, one is, the defense is deeply regretting that they have been put under the gag order. former president trump keeps threatening people. you want to know she's going to take the stand, because it's common to underestimate what she saw, what she knows. if you are wondering why it's important, hamilton has a song about it. you want to be in the room where it happened. she puts you there. >> david, as i'm looking at the google doc coming from the courtroom, from our folks there,

they are apparently going through the transcript. they are not going to show the video of the "access hollywood" tape. they are reading the transcript. that transcript is pretty vulgar. i think you don't see it, but you can hear the audio from the hot mikes. let me bring in ashley parker, "washington post" senior national reporter. you have been reporting about hope hicks' mindset. what have you learned. >> one thing is, she does not want to testify. she's told people close to her that she's frustrated and angry about being called in. this is personal for her. she's someone who kind of joined trump's orbit as one of his first campaign staffers.

despite leaving the wliet house for a period of time, she's been here for every major moment, scandal and controversy. this is not her first time at the rodeo. she has been hauled before congressional committees, numerous congressional committees. she had to testify before congress on january 6. she's appeared before a -- at least one grand jury. she was interviewed by robert mueller in his investigation three times and appeared in his report 180 times. that's worth noting that after they left the white house, she and former president trump stayed in touch. she went down to mar-a-lago a handful of times. after the january 6 testimony before congress which she was compelled to give because of a subpoena, their relationship chilled. ivanka trump was furious about some of the real time text messages that hope had sent on january 6 that came out in that congressional testimony. trump himself thought she had gone too far. they have a cordial

relationship. there's history and warmth between them. being in trump's orbit is like the hotel california. you can check out but you never quite leave. this is an uncomfortable moment for both of them income that courtroom together. >> i want to bring in vaughn hillyard. from the googl doc she's being asked when she first heard about the "access hollywood" tape. pick it up from there. >> reporter: right. this is october 2nd, the chronicling of hope hicks about when she received that initial email about the exchange that donald trump had in 2005 with billy bush in which he, in very vulgar terms, described sexually abusing women. i want to be clear. hicks is describing she was on

the 14th floor of trump tower when she received that email. october 2nd was five days before ultimately the article was published. she says that, i was very concerned. i was concerned about the contents of the email, lack of time to respond. had the transcript but not the tape. she sent it then to other campaign leadership, including jason miller, kellyanne conway and steve bannon. she goes on to describe the way in which the leadership roles the individuals held -- as we work through here. she went to go talk to the group of them on the 25th floor. she's now saying, jason miller, again -- jason miller is a part of his current 2024 operation. of course, kellyanne conway, steve bannon, jared kushner, stephen miller. perhaps chris christie was there. the whole group. they were practicing on the 25th

floor for debate prep. jeff sessions was there she recalls. the debate prep was taking place in the conference room. this is where the struggle comes down over the course of the five days about how to respond to that. of course, we expect the prosecution to ask her about the october 8th phone call the day after, andrea, "the washington post" published the "access hollywood" tape, when there are phone call records that show hope hicks connected donald trump to michael cohen and then later she had a separate short phone call with michael cohen. of course, the details of those phone calls she has not publically ever explained that they included discussion about stormy daniels explicitly. we could expect here in these minutes ahead that we would expect prosecutors to ask her about the events as they unfolded over the course of that week around the "access hollywood" tape. >> as i'm reading this, jared

kushner, his son-in-law, was in that group of top advisors. she is saying she then was called and mr. trump asked her to share what was happening. she shared the email with mr. trump. she said, based on the conversation, trying to get a copy of the audio to assess the situation further. i'm reading from the google doc. we were not sure how to respond. how to assess the situation. she shared the email with mr. trump and trying to get a copy of the audio to assess further how to respond. read the email and she had a vague recollection of starting to read the transcript and he said that didn't sound like that was something he would say. he is speaking to a trusted advisor and a young woman. it's a very vulgar transcript. that had to be an uncomfortable moment, indeed. ashley parker?

>> yes, absolutely. this was one of the moments where the campaign really felt like it was in crisis. i remember covering it. i'm sure vaughn does, too. at the time, if i recall correctly, it wasn't actually until she got that audio and they heard the former president's voice, then candidate trump, that they -- that they realized they had to go into damage control mode. there was about a 24 or 48-hour period where you had republicans calling on him to drop out, including people like priebus, chair of the rnc. there was a sense of they weren't sure he was going to make it, what should mike pence do, but then you will recall that steve bannon prevailed, and trump not just didn't drop out, he showed up at the debate and brought with him some of the

women who had accused bill clinton, the husband of his then rival hillary clinton, of sexual assault and sexual misconduct. so, again, it was this fascinating window where you saw trump in his orbit for one moment having moments of doubt, some moments of vulnerability, but then regrouping, recircling and going out with that shapelessness that has become his trademark superpower. >> ashley, as i'm looking at this, hope hicks is being asked by the prosecutor, did the president ask to see the tape, and she says, yes. not sure if we saw it before it was published or not, but we saw it in a matter of minutes. this soun sounds as though it's prosecutor. was he upset? hicks says, yes. i was a little stunned. it was concerning. i had a good sense this was going to be a massive so story. it wasn't kind -- it wasn't the

kind of story i was used to dealing with. to use an understatement, certainly from the stand. i think all of the women as we look at each other certainly remember that video. she continues to say, it wasn't the kind of story i was used to dealing with. we were trying to go -- it was pulling us backwards in a way it was going to be hard to overcome. that, ashley, speaking to the importance, the impact of this. peter, we were all going to the debate then, as ashley pointed out. that's when the trump team actually stopped the beginning of the debate, because the debate commission -- this created a lot of the tensions we are seeing between trump and the debate commission, which has done debates since 1987. all of the presidential debates. he wanted to bring all of the former alleged bill clinton women out in a prominent front row position so hillary clinton

would have to look at these women as she was coming out on the debate stage. they said, absolutely not. they were eventually seated in another place. there was a lot of drama over how that debate was going to begin as we were all there waiting. >> you are right. someone said to me that was close to the former president, they said he is a master manipulaor of media. in that moment, rather than focusing on the debate itself, the president -- i should say, mr. trump at the time brought out these women so that it created this moment. you will remember, it was a monstrous scene. it overwhelmed the moment. he, who was famous for producing these television moments, had produced a moment that overwhelmed so much of the conversation that had been taking place. the big pushback. you see as we give you the live look inside the trial right now, that the instinct was deny, deny, deny.

this was one of the few occasions where you heard the president's words. you didn't just hear him through aides and confidantes. this was the president's own words on camera. the fact -- her proximity to the effort to resolve it indicates how close she was to the decision making in those moments at the time. >> let me just recollect with all of you who were covering this campaign that at the time the speaker of the house, paul ryan, and other republican leaders, after the "access hollywood" tape came out were saying, this is it, we can't do this anymore. there was talk for a while that the crisis was so big in the first 48 hours over that tape that they were going to bail on their own nominee and figure out what else to do. there was a lot of talk about that. catherine here with me. she's testified this was a massive crisis. we know from having covered

it -- this was a political crisis going into a debate. this is very important testimony. >> yes. she says it was devastating and a crisis at that moment when it came out. the prosecution will say, this explains the need, the urgency to give $130,000 to miss daniels, to make sure that the story didn't come out, that it would be concealed from the electorate, which would influence the election. that's the prosecution's theory. she's neutral. she's paying for her own attorney. she's there by subpoena. she's just answering the questions as an insider and as a press person. who would know better than what's a devastating crisis to a campaign? >> she was then asked -- we just read to you that in this shared document it was going to be a massive story. it would dominate the news cycle. the news cycle coming up was that debate. they were debating a woman candidate from the democratic

side. the prosecutor saying, were you worried about female voters? hicks replied, not at the moment. a lot was going on. eventually, that was something that was raised, the effect on women voters. we are seeing in the shared document that donald trump, in watching this testimony, he had been watching hicks closely, is now gazing straight ahead as she says she was stunned when she heard the tape and it tested her and the campaign's concerns at the time. hicks calling it a damaging moment that pushed the campaign backwards. the prosecutor said, was there a time to respond? i told mr. trump this is troublesome. the exhibit -- the prosecution

exhibit is the first statement in response to the tape, which she had referred to. it's a statement from donald trump. this was locker room banter, a private conversation that took place many years ago. this is the political spin, vaughn hillyard, of what happens in a campaign. they put the best possible light on this. obviously, something that was personally embarrassing to hope hicks. you could understand all of you why the president -- the former president could look straight ahead, because he is watching this very close woman aide who he viewed as a daughter and close confidante, recollecting a terrible moment in that campaign. >> what does she say? i told him, this isn't good. he thought it wasn't something to get upset about. he wasn't in crisis. he didn't view it as devastating. normal people view it as a devastating crisis. the defendant didn't. he wasn't so upset.

he wasn't so devastated. that's probably going to be the defense take on this. >> that's probably what he was saying to her at the time. >> yeah. >> to try to minimize the embarrassment. >> of course. >> of having this kind of locker room banter, whatever you call it. ashley parker, you know hope hicks very well and the relationship with donald trump. describe what that must have been like as -- this is being revealed to her and by her to him, that this had taken place. he knows it happened. we have seen the video and heard it. >> i will say, hope hicks -- i think you have to go back to the beginning to really understand their relationship, which she worked for the trump organization initially for his daughter, then for him. she handled marketing. when he asked her to join his campaign, she thought it was a campaign for one of his golf courses.

she joined. she's a former model who -- she's a political novice who gets thrust into this world. she proves herself a quick study. her dad is a partner at a global communications -- strategic communications firm. by that point, she's somewhat new. politics is new to her. she's been in his orbit for some time. to answer your original question, yes, this was likely an uncomfortable moment. she said she was a little shocked and stunned. she by then had become a total consummate professional who jumped into damage control mode. she understood in a way the former president did not that this was going to be a real problem with women voters. >> ashley parker, thank you for your unique perspective, having covered all of this. as we continue to read this shared document, coming from the

courtroom, they are introducing now the short video that hicks refers to that was released that day. this is the campaign trying to make the best of a very bad situation. it's donald trump saying, i have said and done things i regret. he goes -- excuse me, showing a bill clinton statement and saying, bill clinton abused women, hillary clinton intimidated them. bill clinton has abused women. see you at the debate on sunday. that's the setup for what peter alexander and i were discussing with ashley when we were all at that debate and they tried to turn the attention away from donald trump, as one would do in a campaign. make the best situation you can out of it and turn it back to bill clinton. that was clearly the politics of it. talk to us about the importance of this thread of evidence that is being produced on the witness stand.

hope hicks has credibility. she would be hard to shake on cross-examination. we will see how that goes when it does happen. probably not today, which is also as you were pointing out, the timing of the prosecution, putting her on on a friday when it's a shortened afternoon in deference to a jury who needed to break off time around 3:45 eastern today. there would likely not be enough time, depending how much they want to do and what the lunch break looks like, it could be they don't get to cross-examination today. hope hicks, detailing the initial reaction to the "access hollywood" tape inside their -- the trump tower and how the candidate, donald trump, responded, and how they set up the response that they were planning to roll out at the debate. >> absolutely. my main thought is, what she gives you here is motive. motive isn't something

prosecutions strictly have to prove. but juries eat it up like candy. it's what we are used to hearing. she's giving it to you by the ton. i thought it was striking that she said when the tape came in, we realized we had concern for women voters and generally. i find myself asking the question, what on earth do you cross-examine her about? i'm saying that because, the way she's articulating the circumstances, some of it is even worse than i think people were anticipating it would sound when she's on the witness stand. the only clue we have about what they might consider asking her is -- you said former president trump was pretty calm. you were concerned, he was calm. that sets you up for hope hicks to say, he was calm. but you have to keep it in context with regard to what it took to upset him. his response to this versus other challenges we were facing

was substantial. the problem is, it gets worse and worse on cross-examination in a way you can't fully anticipate. it will be interesting to see how the trial tactics impact this trial. they have a lot to do with the ultimate outcome. this is the first witness we have seen where i think the defense will need to sweat bullets about what they ask her and more specifically what they refrain from asking her on cross-examination. >> mary joining us as well, former justice department official and prosecutor. mary, let's talk about the importance of this testimony. reading on, this shared document, she goes on to be questioned by the prosecuprosec. she said the reaction was intense. it dominated coverage for 36 hours leading up to the debate. we were anticipating a category for a hurricane around that time. no one remembers it because it was all trump in the news during that time. the news pushed the hurricane out of the news. the prosecutor asked that. she said, yes. that strikes me as a pretty impactful statement from her.

he would know what a stage 4 hurricane can be like in the news media. did any prominent republicans condemn it? she replied paul ryan, mitt romney. there's an objection about -- a question about ryan dis-inviting trump from an event. the objection from the defense is overruled. hicks says, i believe we were still going. there was a programming change to distance himself from mr. trump. the republican speaker of the house trying to distance himself from will trump at a campaign event. mr. trump made the decision to not go to that event. vaughn, you may have been covering some of this. >> reporter: sorry. at that moment in time, i was with mike pence in indianapolis.

mike pence actually was going to go to an event in wisconsin with paul ryan as well and ended up cancelling that appearance. instead, he went to a private fund-raiser where people couldn't see him on video. i recall on october 9th as well, mike pence didn't go to the presidential debate. instead, he went on a bike ride in the evening hours just before donald trump's debate appearance in which he brought the clinton accusers forward. i was going through notes here. i would expect, if i may, an october 8 phone call that took place between hope hicks and michael cohen that has been scrutinized in the past in which donald trump was looped in on phone call by hope hicks to be asked by the prosecution. i'm particularly interested in her response to the questions about what was discussed on that october 8th phone call. she previously testified to congressional investigators that they did not talk about stormy

daniels and the potential payoff of stormy daniels, but instead were in discussions about alleged russian hookers having lewd tapes of donald trump. this will be a moment for us to see whether she would expound upon her previous testimony she has given under oath, and whether there's more that she had not previously disclosed or whether the testimony that she provided to congressional investigators in 2019 matches up with what she -- agreement with the prosecution here will testify to under oath here. >> that's really important. continuing to read from this. she's being asked about some of the other republican leaders as well. mitch mcconnell, the majority leader at the time, saying that the "access hollywood" tape was repugnant and unacceptable. trump is sitting in the courtroom watching hicks on one

of the monitors, not looking at her directly. the prosecutor is asking, who was john mccain? he was a senator. the objection is sustained. that's not going to get in as testimony. speaker ryan, did he have a conference call with other members of the house? yes, says hicks. did you know what he said? there's an objection. they are at a bench meeting. outside of the hearing of the jury. hicks is looking over at trump as he is writing on a legal pad. that objection is sustained. so mary, if you want to jump in. clearly, objections might have do with hearsay. >> yes, absolutely. this is really damaging testimony for mr. trump. as others have already indicated, this is not somebody who has been cooperative with prosecutors. she hasn't avoided or tried to get out of her subpoena, but to -- to my knowledge. she's not there as somebody who

wants to be there. she doesn't have a lot of baggage to suggest she would be biased against mr. trump except for, of course, what we have discussed with respect to january 6th. she seems to be -- i'm not in the courtroom -- coming off credibly. clearly, i think the jurors will not only be listening very carefully to everything that hope hicks is saying, they will look at how mr. trump responds. he is somebody who does on occasion emote from the courtroom and react to how different witnesses testify. this being somebody who worked so closely with him, i think the jurors will be interested in how he reacts to her testimony. in terms of these other republican members of congress being very critical of what they saw in this tape, you know, i think that goes to it's so

significant why it was important to squash the stormy daniels story. coming right on the heels of this "access hollywood" tape, when as hope hicks indicated they were worried about the impact on female voters in particular, and we are right up here at the cusp of the election, to have stormy daniels' accusations come out at that time would have been like the icing on the cake of all the damaging information that came out in that "access hollywood" tape. going back to i think what david mentioned. motive, this is part of the prosecution story. it shows how seriously everyone in the white house took it -- not yet in the white house. everyone who wanted to be in the white house took it. even though mr. trump might have been trying to downplay it as locker room talk, there's no question as others started to react to it and it got what hope hicks has said 36 hours of

sustained media attention, that had to be very worrisome to him. >> mary, as we continue with her testimony, they are connecting -- the prosecutor is connecting this to mr. cohen. did you speak to michael cohen about the release of the tape? i was calling him to ask him to chase down what was in the media with his contacts to make sure there wasn't another tape. i asked him to call a friend to see if there's a tape and what was on it. did cohen follow up? she says, i believe he did make a phone call. then they are moving on to the debate, which is when we as other participants as news reporters were there watching. when was the debate? october 9 in st. louis. the "access hollywood" tape did come up. i believe it was one of the first questions. trump reiterated this was locker

room talk. words, not actions. the prosecutor says, were you aware of trump's behavior with women? we don't have a complete answer. this is as we are watching for it. mary, this is critical as the jury, i'm sure, has to be fascinated by all of this. right? >> to go back to the beginning of what you just were reading from, that shared google document, the fact she reached out to michael cohen and wanted him to track down, are there other tapes, again, this is all going to end up corroborating michael cohen when he testifies. he was right in the thick of things. he is somebody that hope hicks is reaching out to. we know from yesterday, there's emails and text messages between them. it's important -- this is a very critical part of her testimony, that he's the person she would reach out to. it makes it more credible when he becomes a person to do something about the stormy daniels tape after that comes out.

with respect to the debate, obviously, that's significant. that's what was going on. here we are, less than a month before the election, and this is the issue that is now the opening questions of that debate. obviously, whatever mr. trump might want to think about this being locker room talk at the time, it was a big, big deal. >> catherine is here with me as well. talking about this, the prosecutor is asking hope hicks, did you become aware of reports regarding trump's behavior with women? she says, after the tape, yes, 2 1/2, 3 weeks before the election, he was traveling for rallies, i was with him. the prosecutor prompts her, there was a rally in north carolina. she says, october 15th. you have a witness here who is credible. she hasn't written a book. she hasn't tried to criticize him or take personal advantage

from her prior very close connection with the trump campaign and the trump white house. >> just the facts. >> she's been a non-player -- she hasn't been on our cable shows. she hasn't done interviews. she hasn't done anything to advance her own career or take advantage, as i would say, monetarily from any connection to donald trump. >> unlike david pecker and mr. davidson yesterday, there's no sleaze factor with hope hicks. it's just the facts. i'm here. i'm telling the truth. she's coming -- i'm not seeing her, but from reading it, she's coming across very credible. >> unlike some of the other former trump players. she said at the beginning, right out front with the prosecution when she was first on the stand, she's paying for her own attorney. >> own attorney. she's objective. she's in anyone's pocket. she's on subpoena. she's cooperating, but she's not

in the pocket of the prosecution. i'm answering your questions to the best of my ability. this is the truth. >> there's also a clip that they have played of donald trump at that rally in greensboro, north carolina. i'm sure, peter alexander, you were there, of him saying these are all lies. if 5% or 10% is true, we don't win. the prosecutor says, mr. trump was concerned that these reports could hurt his standing with voters. she says, yes. did mr. trump have a twitter account in 2016? yes, hope hicks said. he posted every day. he considered it an important way to communicate with voters. prosecutor says, trump's response to the response of some elected officials -- she says, i think he was frustrated. it was not unusual republican --

mainstream republican elected officials like paul ryan, mitt romney were not friendly to donald trump. the prosecutor asks about a tweet from donald trump. the very foul-mouthed senator john mccain begged for my support during the primary. i gave it. he won. that's the rivalry with john mccain. >> and again, bringing up all of these republicans -- he was the republican nominee. again, shows how stressed and devastated he believed this was to the campaign. goes to his intent to falsify the business record and intend to commit the other crime. >> peter, your election of this. i was covering the hillary clinton campaign. we were seeing each other. this was one of the most fraught

moments. a few weeks before the election and then, of course, in hillary world, they were dealing with the laptop and the jim comey affects. both campaigns were just going through tumult. >> reporter: you are right. we did hear that exchange now with the prosecutors where they asked her whether mr. trump had concerns this would have an impact on his support by voters. her answer, as you indicated, was simply, yes. it takes away from the idea the president was trying to dismiss this saying it wasn't such a big deal when the tape was first revealed. i am struck by those closing weeks before the election having spent the last month and a half with the former president, leading up to that election in 2016 about just how frenetic the pace was and there was a lockdown feel about the campaign

in those closing days after the video came out. they want to make a spectacle to leak information. there was so much going on behind closed doors, trying to sort out how best to resolve this situation, that they themselfed recognithem themself -- to give you an idea of how the people in the inner circle viewed it, i remember in october, in the days leading up to the election, one of the former president's closest then allies and aides approached me and talked about professional opportunities after the election with a real sense that this thing was going south, that the former president, then candidate trump had done so much damage that they were pursuing other opportunities. then they did not view it really as a reality that he could win this thing, at least so many of those so close to him.

behind the scenes in all of those conversations, frankly at the heart of so many, was hope hicks. someone who, as you noted, doesn't have any other agenda than to tell the truth. she's not stayed close to the former president over the course of the last couple years. i think that makes what she's saying so much stronger. >> let me bring us back to this -- to the words we are getting from this shared document from the courtroom. prosecutors asking about karen mcdougal. hicks says, i heard -- november 4, 2016. i we are talking about the campaign is at an apex. she first heard the name when she received a call from a "wall street journal" reporter, an inquiry about her and the "national enquirer." have you heard of stormy daniels? hicks says, she was mentioned in the same story. heard of her a year prior.

guys on the plane were telling a story about a celebrity golf tournament. she was there with one of the participants who trump played with that day. hicks is now able -- i guess she refreshed her memory to remember all of the dates and times from -- let's widen the frame a bit and bring in victoria defran defrancesco. victoria, as an analyst about this, when the "access hollywood" tape came up, it was a raw moment. is this going to matter? are we too far from the election itself for this to begin impacting that all important group of women voters, suburban women voters that we are talking about, that donald trump has certainly been trying to appeal to and get around the abortion issue, and tiptoe around the abortion issue with different

positions? this is being dredged up again. it's pretty raw. >> it is. that tape and thinking back to 2016, it was such a bomb. that being said, time does help heal wounds. the distance from the "access hollywood" tape has been a positive for donald trump. in thinking about the role of hope hicks as we are focused on her, during this trial, she was able to soften that image of donald trump. if we look at folks like hope coming out in the campaign, these are aspects that help donald trump as he is starting to reach beyond his base. his base is with him no matter. the suburban moms, those women voters that he desperately needs, because women -- we turn out and have been turning out more than men for decades. that's going to be something he

is going to have to hit the reset button in looking to november. it will always be in the background. i think the issue of abortion, abortion access for women and what it means for their lives is where his campaign strategy focus is going to have to be. >> in fact, in the courtroom, she's being asked about karen mcdougal and when she first heard about karen mcdougal. she said she thought it was -- there was a woman named karen mcdougal that was purchased by the "national enquirer." her response is asking the reporter to hold and hicks said it was an inquiry, a press inquiry. it has been accepted into

evidence that that email came. in any case, peter alexander, when we talk about the campaign and what was happening at the time, this is also going to bring "access hollywood" back into the conversation. the tape is not going to be played. that's too prejudicial. this judge is being very careful about what he puts in and what he doesn't allow to be put into evidence. i can guarantee you, it's going to be played on newscasts or tabloids it's going to stream. this is a reminder to current voters of that incident. peter? >> reporter: you are right. remember, one of your guests described its a bomb. that's the way it felt in those days before the election. really did feel like it tore this thing wide open. it was stunning, even as members of the trump campaign said he was able to win. you put that in the context of the 2024 election, where it is not just the defendant donald

trump who we are looking at but candidate donald trump whose stoies we are being reminded of. the former president is front and center on every television screen, news coverage as it relates to this as a function of this. it has given the opportunity for joe biden, who is trying to keep an arm's lengthen from this, not wanting to interfere, to mock the former president. his comments at the dinner over the weekend talking about how donald has had a few tough days. you might call it stormy weather. in some ways, this episode was not just outrageous but it was unbelievable. it reminds you of where we were then and that those stories still hold true now. in many ways, this is a character witness but not necessarily one that benefits the former president. someone who knew him as well as anybody but can pull back the curtain on what the thinking was inside. i think it does have the

potential to be not just damaging in the courtroom but damaging politically. this is going to play out at the top of newscasts all over the place. there have been concerns because of everything we have seen on college campuses in recent days, that any time you talk about college campuses in the eyes of president biden's aides, you are not talking about this court case involving donald trump. tonight, you better believe this is the main headline across newscasts this evening for tens of millions who aren't watching right now. >> vaughn, let's go back to this shared document, because it's an email from "the wall street journal" reporter. it's clearly the kind of email we get from our desk to check things out. this one says, we need comment as soon as possible for a story we plan to publish about american media buying the rights to a story -- the email to hope hicks from "the wall street journal" reporter, a former playmate of the year, karen

mcdougal, an affair she told them they had in 2006. we plan to report that ami purchased the story to kill it and prevent mrs. mcdougal from telling it. hicks says, she believes she told mr. trump about the email inquiry before he started talking at the ohio rally. i forwarded it to jared kushner. he had a good relationship with rupert murdoch. i was hoping we could buy a little extra time to deal with this. they are bringing this into evidence. the prosecutor is asking, is this the same incoming message from "the wall street journal"? yes, i forwarded it to jared kushner to see if he could speak to the publisher of "the wall street journal" to buy extra time. he said it wasn't going to be able to reach murdoch. vaughn, this tells you a lot about what goes on behind the scenes.

>> reporter: absolutely. the deliberations when a big story breaks. that was four days before the general election. there are a couple key points that we were looking for from hope hicks' testimony that could be -- >> let me interrupt you. the conclusion of that sentence is now being typed into the document. this is tieing a lot of threads together. as i was saying, she said -- she's testifying that she was told he wasn't going to be able to reach rupert. what did she do? i called michael cohen, because he had a relationship with pecker and i believe i called mr. pecker's office as well to see if he knew anything about it. so this is tieing hope hicks and her action was to call michael

cohen and also call david pecker to see if they could find out anything about this inquiry from "the wall street journal" about a story that had been killed about karen mcdougal. vaughn. >> right. you're absolutely right. i think that there, andrea, is some things that hope hicks is giving the prosecution and other things that she is not. let's start off with the what she is not. number one, they bypassed testimony about that august 2015 trump tower meeting between david pecker, michael cohen and donald trump, that david pecker testified that hope hicks came in and out of. the prosecution didn't ask her for details about whether she heard about anything related to the potential catch and kill scheme. that's number one. we also heard from hope hicks testify about an october 8th phone call, a day after the access hollywood tape, in which she had a phone call linking donald trump up with michael cohen in a separate phone call that lasted a few minutes between her and michael cohen,

and there were questions about those phone calls and whether she had talked to michael cohen specifically about stormy daniels. in the last hour, she has testified that she did not. instead, she talked about another potential tape that there was a rumor about. and the third part they bypass was a phone call on october 8th, the day a wire transfer went through between her and michael cohen. the prosecution bypassed asking her about that. what she has offered up is that very specific point, in both of those calls she knew to go to michael cohen because of relationships with individuals like david pecker that may have dirty information or salacious stories on donald trump, she knew that michael cohen was her go-to for that type of information. >> and vaughn, to just pick up exactly on what you were saying, she's now testified that she's been told by jared kushner that he didn't think he could reach rupert. she called michael cohen, called

david pecker. i asked pecker what was going on and why i was receiving this email. obviously i didn't know anything about it, and he explained that she, karen mcdougal was paid for magazine covers and columns, and quote, it was all very legitimate, and that is what the contract was for. i had never discussed karen mcdougal with him before. i spoke to michael cohen before i spoke to pecker. i don't really remember what cohen said. hicks said there was a reason i called david next. the prosecutor says did you begin drafting a response to the "wall street journal." she said, yes, i sent a draft to michael cohen while trump was on stage, and then shared with trump when he was done with the rally. so this is what an inside player was, she knew right away to call michael cohen, it call david pecker to draft a response while the candidate for president was still speaking at that rally in ohio, this is 2016, and she sent

the draft to michael cohen while trump was on stage, so michael cohen, his personal attorney who was also his fixer is going to approve and fact check that or decide what the spin was, so now they're introducing that draft statement to michael cohen as an exhibit for the prosecution. catherine, this is a lot of information tieing together for the jury david pecker anticipating and prebutting what the defense will try to do to michael cohen to tie it all to this very credible seemingly credible disinterested woman. >> but she also supplies for the prosecution, one, she's already said she reported directly to trump, and she knows to go directly to his personal lawyer, michael cohen, which shows the trusted and important role he played with donald trump, and the next step would be, of

course, donald trump knew what he was doing. that would be the prosecution argument. but her testimony so far has not said she's discussed these things with donald trump. of course she hasn't been asked that, probably for a reason because she didn't discuss what she was doing with donald trump. >> donald trump was at the time speaking at a rally, so she was working on her own. >> she had authority to do that from donald trump. >> exactly. now they are reading the email from michael cohen back to hope hicks about this draft statement. this is november 4th, 2015. instead say these accusations are completely untrue and just the latest despicable attempt by the liberal media and the clinton machine to distract the public from the fbi's ongoing criminal investigation. and hicks is saying we wanted to hear back from david pecker as well, and mr. trump didn't want to use the statements we had drafted. he wanted to do his own. now she's doing exactly what she said, it's tieing it directly to the defendant donald trump.

pete alexander, if you want to comment on this because you were looking at it through the lens of a correspondent covering a political campaign, and this was, as you say, hitting it like a bomb. >> reporter: andrea, i think you're right. just consider this, there was some conversation before about whether putting hope hicks on, where you would only be able to hear for for a brief period of time heading to the weekend, what the sort of prosecutorial strategy might be behind that. this is what's going to marinate in the minds of those jurors. this is what's going to marinate in the minds of american voters as they have the next several days. i'm just struck as we're having this conversation turning back the clock eight years and what a big moment it was then and the potential that that moment would impact this election cycle, not just as it relates to this court case but, frankly, as it relates to a reminder about all these issues as they relate to the former president himself, again, a candidate for president right now. he was able to get away.

he went and had a doubleheader, wisconsin and michigan this week for a series of campaign events right now. as he has complained from outside the courtroom, certainly on truth social as many times as you get a chance to glance at it, he is in court for three, perhaps four days each week leaving a very limited opportunity to campaign. so this, you know, he was trying to campaign outside the courtroom. this does a lot of the campaigning on his political opponents' behalf right now, really putting a lot of this stuff back in the minds of american voters. in a lot of ways, it's one of the first opportunities for those folks to listen to hope hicks. you're not seeing her, you're not hearing her. you are reading exactly what she's saying. i think that is particularly compelling given that she was as central a figure as anybody, but also as interest worthy a figure as anybody from the trump white house. everywhere that i would go oaf the course of the time covering that white house, i would have questions to me not just about

the former president but about ivanka trump and about hope hicks. so i think pulling back the curtain on what she knew and what her experience was is going to be very powerful for a lot of people. >> and just bringing in david henderson, your views on how powerful a witness so far it looks like hope hicks has been because we're now seeing that michael cohen sent that note back to hope hicks, that the accusations are completely untrue. the latest despicable attempt, et cetera, and he's now pointing out that did you believe that the -- did you believe the response that it was not true and that there was no relationship, and hicks says, i thought the point was the "national enquirer" paid a woman for her story and never published it, not about accusations of certain behavior. the jury's just been dismissed for lunch at 12:57 eastern.

david henderson, you want to pick it up? we've got about a minute left. >> absolutely, andrea, hope hicks leaves me thinking right now is that former president trump dodged the access hollywood video outside the courtroom. i doubt he's going to be able to dodge it inside the courtroom after that testimony. one of the best things that could happen for him if you're the defense is someone goes back there during deliberations and says i'm just not going to convict a former president. hope hicks did not testify about presidential behavior, therefore i am throwing that argument in the trash can and the jury will move on, and i think that right now it's a very good moment for the prosecution. i can't wait to see what happens next e. >> and catherine christian, in about 30 seconds, they've left for lunch, she walked out. she didn't even look at the camera. she just went right by. excuse me, trump did. trump left and did not look at the camera, and she's clearly not talking.

>> the defense is hoping they get a little bit of their cross examination n. why? because the prosecutor can't speak to her then. they want to start a little bit of that this afternoon. >> mary mccord, this is a pretty powerful way to take the lunch break on a friday. >> it absolutely is. it is going to be a slightly early adjournment today at 3:45, but that still gives them a couple of hours after luchlk. i think we'll hear a lot more. defense is going to hope they can get to cross examination. i'm not sure that's going to happen today. >> thanks to you, mary mccord, to catherine christian, vaughn hillyard, peter alexander, david henderson, and victoria defrancesco soto and of course ashley parker, thanks to all, an extraordinary friday. that does it for us for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." "chris jansing reports" starts right now. ♪♪ good day, i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. hope hicks on the stand, just