press person for the campaign. so one would assume she would have had a conversation with donald trump. it would be better for the prosecution if there's a direct text message between him and donald trump, who apparently until now, didn't text or e-mail. >> what a way to end the day. thank you very much for hanging out with me. i appreciate it. that's going to do it for me "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. welcome to thursday. st it's 4:00 in new york. day ten of the donald trump election interference hush money criminal trial. the sleazy underbelly taking center stage. the whole scheme to catch and kill stories specifically to help the trump campaign was exposed again. a wealth of evidence from lawyers, a porsche star and a

tabloid reporter that show the frantic scramble to stop it from going off the rails. the chaos that ensued when the hush money payments came to light. on the stand right now is a man named doug daus. he's a tech expert who works at the da's office. he comes after hours of extraordinary testimony from keith davidson. the jury saw the agreement between david dennison and peggy peterson alongside a side letter written by keith davidson that, as he puts it, decodes the agreement between the two and specificically mentions donald trump. the deals was done before donald trump's election night upset, a shocker to both keith david sop and national inquire editor lance howard. quote, keith davidson text the editor in chief of the national

inquirer around 3:00 a.m. eastern on the night of the 2016 election. quote, what have we done, keith davidson text. oh, my god, he text him that night. asked what he meant in his text, keith davidson said this was humor. he said there was an understanding between the two of them that, quote, our activities may have in some way assisted the presidential campaign of donald trump. keith davidson also recalled michael cohen's frustration when he learned he would not be going to washington with donald trump after he won. davidson said he got a call from michael cohen, who said something to the effect of, quote, jesus christ, can you f'ing believe i'm not going to washington after everything i have done for that f'ing guy. i saved that guy's bleep so many times you don't even know. adding, that f'ing guy is not even paying me back the $130,000 referring to the hush money he paid stormy daniels. keith davidson testified to the

efforts by michael cohen to keep stormy daniels silent as reporters swarmed around the story in 2018. he says michael cohen text him, quote, keith, the wise men all believe the story is dying and don't think it's smart for her to do any interviews. no interviews at all with anyone. he said michael cohen was in pants on fire mode. we were trying to thread a needle and hold off a breach and all the penalties that would come with that where cohen could file an arbitration or sue stormy. that would be another disaster he added that michael cohen threatened to, quote, rain legal hell down on her. during cross-examination, team trump sought to poke holes in keith davidson's credibility highlighting other cases he has worked on involving his celebrity clients. nbc news put it like this. bove, trump's attorney is

highlighting how seemy davidson's world was by bringing up past clients that he was investigated for allegedly extorting hulk hogan. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. with us at table the is susan craig. she's back from inside the courthouse. also in court today watching in person is our friend at the department of justice andrew weisman. along with charles cole man and yasmin vossoughian. >> reporter: it has been quite a day to say the least. i want to talk quickly about the individual on the stand now. someone of an expert witness. it's an important context if you think about the expert witness talking about how it is they went to come upon some of these secret phone calls in which

michael cohen record. i think it's important because it establishes how they were able to obtain the secret phone calls. they are putting this testimony, the last 60 minutes, 30 minutes until the end of kourlt, so making sure this witness testifies towards the end of the day for the jury to understand how it is they came upon this information. these receipts, per se, this evidence per se that has been admitted by the prosecution. let's talk quickly through some of what we heard between both michael cohen and keith davidson. i think there's a lot of back and forth and kind of contentious behavior and interactions between michael cohen and keith davidson. i want to read some, if i can, talking about why it was howard acted as an intermediate between keith davidson and michael cohen. at one point he says, he can be very aggressive guy, an aggressive to protect his client saying we would bankrupt her and rain legal hell down on her. don't mess with us you don't

know who you are messing with. much of the testimony that we heard today from keith davidson, and especially in the cross-examination from the attorneys, was all about discrediting the prosecution's witnesses. it was about discrediting michael cohen. it was about discrediting keith davidson and about discrediting stormy daniels in different ways. it's much of bha you talked about. it was about discrediting him writing kind of as an ambulance chaser, the celebrity culture. clients like hulk hogan going after lindsey lohan when she was in rehab. discrediting his testimony saying that michael cohen is being directed by donald trump to act, to obtain the hush money that was handed over to stormy daniels. then stormy daniels seeming as if had an ax to grind because donald trump had not cast her in the apprentice saying she was going on jimmy kimmel because she wanted to advance her career. kind of setting up how this was

going to go when it comes to some of the testimony we will likely get from michael cohen, from stormy daniels as well. the one thing that i will say is that the prosecution successfully showed the receipts before the cross-examination. i say this because there was a moment in which they talked about david dennison, the pseudonym used for donald trump that was revealed to be used for hulk hogan as well. and they asked whether or not david dennison signed the agreement between michael cohen and stormy daniels when the $130,000 was paid to stormy daniels. and the prosecution was the one who first revealed that to the jury. it was that which donald trump's attorneys ended their cross-examination with. but it was important for the prosecution to bring up and say, listen, we know this happened we know david dennison did not sign this agreement. but scently it was what the

prosecution ended their cross-examination on. >> it seems to be the strategy with david pecker and keith davidson to say these fwies are mixed up with shady characters. it wasn't just this way with donald trump when it came to pecker on the stand. keith davidson's case, they seemed to try to durty him up. when these are people that donald trump was involved with, not alvin bragg. >> there was a point this morning and early this afternoon we were thinking what was going on here. i have to say they went much harder after keith davidson than they did david pecker. we can talk about that in a moment. we have been chatting about that. but i think where they are going, because on one hand you'd think they would have stopped at keith davidson, have you ever met donald trump. no. because they have to prove this conspiracy. when you distill this case, it comes down to there's going to be a conspiracy, but then you

have to get to the falsification of the business records. it became apparent as they were going through the cross of keith davidson and how vicious it was that i think they are trying to make keith davidson and michael cohen out to be these two scoundrels that were conspireing and donald trump is the vitim. they got into this huge -- >> of what? >> of an extortion plot, that he was being extorted. you got into this back and forth, it was incredible where he kept saying did you extort this person or that person? he finally said i had a civil agreement for which there was payment, i'm paraphrasing, but that kept coming up over and over. i think that was sort of the story line that emerged to me that this is potentially where they are going with this. curious what andrew thought, but that's what we were landing on as we were talking. >> i agree. i was struck by if you think

about sort of what happened today. it should have happened with david pecker. so the surprising thing was there was a very, very cross. it was fireworks in the courtroom. but you were like, to what end? >> i guess that's my point. so say you prove beyond a reasonable doubt these guys are skuz sit. >> he says, yeah, we were intentionally defaming people. i was intentionally supporting a candidate. it was all secret and it was to get somebody elected. it was the most shocking -- you want to talk about sleaze factor. it was incredible. >> your partner was, oh, trump. >> he's the principle. who did you have the deal with? donald trump. but there was none of that. so it was interesting to me that the choice was made when there was an easy cross and a polite cross of davidson to say, you

department deal with my client at all. everything that you know came through michael cohen or somebody else. so you just don't have anything to add to the sort of false documents. so instead there was a lot of drama, which i agree is going to be used as a distraction in closing to say, look, they are really extorting him. that's not a defense. it's a distraction defense. but just to focus on what was the import of davidson, it is how you started. to sum up the actual import of today, it was the, quote, what have we done? there was no question that he was saying, and it wasn't just his testimony. everything he said today was in a document. it was in an e-mail or a text or a written agreement. so there was no way to attack him in terms of his direct tail

light. everything was in writing. >> what did the prosecution need from him? >> what they got out of him was this was about the election. and even on cross where they said you knew that you needed the leverage and you had leverage before the election and not after, and he goes, absolutely. that's not a cross point. that is a conspiracy. >> and the piece about the time ing of the affair was something vaughn hillyard reminded me of. i think the affair was in 2006. it was well before the election. the variable is post "access hollywood," preelection day. >> that text is really powerful when keith davidson says, what have we done to dylan howard. he's like, i hope i'm going to get a presidential pardon out of this. those sort of things came out, but i think today it really did -- i was wondering how the

jury was processing a lot of this stuff and keith davidson dealing with sex tape brokers. pfs it was tantalizing, but i get they were trying to muddy them up. >> i want to hear more about the atmosphere, but just as a trial 101, does the prosecution at some point have to lean in and say, yes, these are tawdry characters. >> you have to understand this is the cast of characters you're dealing with. in setting the stage for your arguments, when you're on summation, you're going to acknowledge that. you're going to say, no one here is a saint or nun or priest for that matter. but seldom do we have that in the criminal element to begin with. so you make that sort of par the course and normalize it to the jury. then you make your arguments from there and make sure you connect the dots. you asked the question earlier to what end as far as donald trump being the victim. it doesn't matter to what let's all keep in mind, donald trump's defense team is looking for one

person to hold out. they are looking to distract one juror enough with all of these antics and slight of hand and muddying different witnesses up to a degree that allows them to say, i don't know how much this has to do with donald trump. i'm not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump is guilty of of the things that he's charged with. it doesn't really matter whether they have established this notion of extortion. that's not really a defense. it's just enough where in the imagination of the jurors, have they done enough to distract them in terms of these characters seeming like they were in cahoots with each other, or con --ly, have we created enough distance between donald trump and the situation where i'm not certain how involved donald trump actually was. which is where the normalcy of a cross would come in and say, i never met my client. i think those are two strategies that the defense are using.

and the prosecution is going to have to figure out a way to make those connections more clearly as we go forward. >> that's what the documents and another corroborating evidence. >> it's too bad they have phone recordings of david pecker. today was a little bit about -- i felt -- i thought keith davidson laid the tracks for what he needed to. a lot of this was a side show. when you think not a the lot of today was connected to donald trump, we still have a lot connected to him. and they did start playing some of the phone recordings that michael cohen, the many that he made started coming into evidence. they were very hard to understand from where we were, even in the courtroom. some weren't played out loud. those are now starting to roll in. i think we'll get a better understanding of twaktly what they were in the days to comp. but it's hard when you step back and you think, david pecker was very powerful and he was david pecker talking to donald trum about the conspiracy part. in the coming week, we're going

to get to the falsification of the business records. right now, we're in that first phase. >> they are creating the motive. i think as someone who covered every one of these news cycles here on the coverage side, to take a jury back in time to make clear that while stormy daniels had a relationship with trump in 2007, the release of the "access hollywood" tape changed the ecosystem. how effective do you think they have been with all the witnesses they put forth in showing how come pressed the time was for trump? >> i think that came out loud and clear. stormy daniels went from a story that she couldn't sell to suddenly this is the window of opportunity. i do think it's important to focus on a key thing that has come up that the defense is going to argue. i'm not say there aren't

substantial answers to it, but today the jury saw the agreement that is between donald trump and even the side letter that made it clear it's donald trump and stormy daniels. but on the signature page, there are four signatures that are supposed to be there and donald trump's is not there. you also have michael cohen saying because there was a short window. they were trying to basically say, hey, maybe we don't have to pay until after the election, meaning we don't have to pay at all, or even if we win, it doesn't really matter. it won't affect the votes. and now that seems acquaint wauz he doesn't have to worry about what the votes are. it seems like a quaint thing to worry about. in 2016 people still cared about that. >> just porn stars and play mates. >> in addition to not signing, they are going to say michael cohen is saying to davidson, you

know what, maybe i'm just going to have to pay on my own. we know he does. he pays the $130,000. so the issue is there reasonable doubt? did donald trump know in advance that this was going to be the agreement, or did he ratify it later opposed to this is michael cohen doing this. they will have to explain why there was a reimbursement, like how that happened without his knowing what the deal was. that's one of the challenges. but that's going to be -- >> isn't that on tape also? trump writes those checks from the oval office. "the new york times" published one of those. >> i don't think the reimbursement for this is on tape. the karen mctoog doog the is. >> but the selled checks are a matter of public record. >> i suspect they are going to have evidence of donald trump signing those and be able to put that in his hands and also the invoice and the invoice number is really fake because the invoice talks about this is

payment for current work being done month to month. >> and he was paid as a salaried employee, right? >> they are going to have to come up with something. but they are going to be able to say donald trump didn't sign it. this is what a good criminal does. this is donald trump where you ask somebody else to be the front person over and over again. we saw it with the mueller investigation, with don mcgahn, i want you to be out front saying this and i want deniability. you knew if he can avoid putting his signature on this. >> there's tons of evidence for any of us who have covered trump grabbing other people's cell phones and giving orders. tell me how this is playing out in court today. >> reporter: the timing is a the really important conversation. it's one you were just talking about on the table. if you think about the release, that was in early october. this is something that they have

been setting up throughout the day and throughout the testimony of the other witnesses leading up to today. the release of the tape, they started with e-mail exkangs between keith davidson and michael cohen on october 26th. 14 days before the election, just two weeks before the election, all of this happening in a matter of six weeks time. also you think about how the prosecution is really setting up the stage for this credibility issue when it comes to their witnesses. the michael cohen, the stormy daniels of the world and all the other witnesses it seems that the defense is really going after. kind of questioning the credibility of every witness that takes the stand. even in the prosecution's opening statements, they talk about michael cohen being a convicted felon. they talk about michael cohen lying on the stand. they lead with that type of information just as they did today when they said dennison did not sign the agreement made between stormy daniels and

michael cohen. these are things that they are leading with because they understand they know they have the documentation. hence, why a boring witness, though a very important witness, is still on the stand now backing up how it is they come upon and verify some of these documents, some of these phone calls, some of these text messages as andrew weisman smartly said, so much of this evidence is based on documentation. text messages, social media, and so e-mail exchanges as well. so hence why this witness is so incredibly important. but also why the prosecution feels safe by putting more of these shady characters, we should the say, forward as some of their star witnesses to help build this entire timeline. >> some smart prosecutors said that mobsters would never go to jail if mobsters didn't make credible witnesses. as you're saying, there has to be a method to the madness and

the documents seem like part of the strategy. we have to sneak in a break. still to come for us, i'll show you some of the evidence and some of the exchanges that people have referred to already on this program. we'll also talk about republican presidential candidate using his free day yesterday to speak out about a stolen election in 2020 and the one that hasn't happened yet. we'll talk about trump seeding the next election with distrust and lies. later in the broadcast, more from inside the courtroom. how the ex-president is showing just how triggered he really is. the latest violations of the gag order placed on him. and mary trump joins us, all that ahead when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. there's also breaking news out of arizona. moments ago, the governor signed a repeal of that state's 1864 civil war era near total ban on abortions. which the state supreme court ruled constitutional last month. good news for the women of

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did you sign this letter released today? >> i don't know, did i? >> that does not look like my signature. >> it doesn't. perhaps you're saying it was written and released without your approval.

do you know where it came from? >> i do not. >> i know you either do or don't have a nondisclosure agreement, which if you didn't have a nons disclosure agreement, do you have a nondisclosure agreement? >> do i? >> you can't say. but if you didn't have a nondisclosure agreement, you most certainly could say i don't have a nondisclosure agreement. >> you're so smart, jimmy. >> his ability to question around that, truly. we know a lot more about what was going on now. >> just incredible word games. some of them came in up court today. there was e-mail that was sent over from "the wall street journal" about to publish the stories and they would send over a note that would ask is there a hush money payment made. and keith davidson in the court

it came up in the documents he would say no, because it wasn't a hush money payment. it was a consideration for a civil settlement. another point, we have been laughing about the government lawyers were asking was it a sexual relationship that they had. it wasn't sexual. there was no relationship between stormy and donald trump. so they could deny that. and it was just incredible the way that they were playing with language. >> how do juries take that? >> keith davidson twice sent letters that essentially said there was no romantic sexual relationship and the da quite rightly said can you essentially score that in terms of truthfulness. it's a great question because there's no bad answer to that. he says it was truthful. he says, can you square how there was no romantic sexual relationship is truthful, how is

that? no one has ever accused stormy daniels and the former president of having a romantic relationship. and then later he says, there was no sexual relationship. that's in another writing by keith davidson. he said the da says how do you square that in terms of truthfulness. he says no one would say they had a relationship. it was just a one night stand. to be fair, mr. davidson said i know this is a technical definition, it did strike me as a clinton-ish definition, but that, in many ways, was doing on direct examination what cross was doing, which is, yes, this is not -- this is not exactly david kendall, the president's council at the top of the bar. we're dealing with people engaged in this kind of work.

>> the reason we're dealing with this is because donald trump slept with people he hired. >> they were going -- stormy wanted to somehow tell her story. she wanted to go on jimmy kimmel, but she wanted to not break the agreement that she had brokered with donald trump because she was facing penalties if she did. so we saw her, and she's just being cute, but she gets on jimmy kimmel. "the wall street journal" and one of the reporters that broke that story is now working at the new york tooims. he said at the time they were aware it was a nondenial denial. these things happen all the time with reporters. you really have to read through it like donald trump will tell us when we ask did you pay income tax. i pay tax. it could be property tax. they are resites in the language. >> a jury knows that. >> generally, juries know that. especially smart jurors. they are not going to look souper kindly on the notion of

trying to use language to be cute or evasive or allusive. people who are listening and paying attention understand the difference what it is to actually have a substantiative relationship with someone and when you're trying to bs your way out of a question by give ing an answer on a technical itty they don't appreciate the letter pause they feel like we both experienced this, don't lawyer me. don't use the technical terms. >> any parent, did you have your phone in your bed after the curfew? well, it wasn't in my bed. every parent, every spouse, every marriage, every family. >> they don't take kindly to that. so that is not foing to play well. >> i thought an important point of all of that discussion was it was like they spent so much time on it.

it was that still in 2018 donald trump was still seemingly through michael cohen, they were still in the middle of the stormy daniels thing trying to pay attention. is she going on jimmy kimmel, what is she going to say. michael cohen was in the middle of that. two years later they are still worried about it. >> until he's charged. yasmin, two questions for you. one, weigh in again on the timeline presented to the jury today. because the alleged sex in '07, michael cohen keeping her quiet until 2018. >> had i didn't know i was going to be talking about this stuff on tv as a grown up. whether it was a one night stand or a relationship, my parents are probably like, man, what she

signed up for. so you think back. >> we're sorry to everyone's parents. >> exactly right. you think back to 2006. the allegations that were made that trump denies is that stormy daniels and donald trump met in 2006 that is going to put on celebrity apprentice. that was the night where they had a one night stand. hence the reason why it was not a relationship. they had some back and forth communications throughout years. stormy daniels approached in 2011 to reveal the relationship or one night stand. she didn't take the bait. it tnt come out until years later and the payment came in 2016. just a couple weeks before the november election. karen mcdougal, also a potential star witness also meeting donald trump the same year, 2006, but

contends she had a year-long relationship in which she actually visited donald trump's apartment in trump tower and they exchanged multiple text messages and phone calls. i think it's going to be very interesting to see if karen mcdougal takes the stand. we're expecting her to do that, how they frame that relationship versus the framing, obviously, of stormy daniels relationship as well. also go back to the point that you were talking about the way stormy daniels framed the relationship. that was part of how they tried to attack cross-examination, that she was trying to take advantage of a moment. she was trying to pollster her career. she went on jimmy kimmel. donald trump didn't come through on the apprentice or getting michael cohen a position in the white house. so all these people, all of these potential star witnesses are just out to get him.

the problem with the argument, which is what andrew weisman talked about, it's going to go down to whether or not he fraudulently put forward these records. that's really what this is about it's not about the credibility of these witnesses despite the fact that's what the defense is trying to make this about. >> it's so interesting. it's a game of how can you become distracted. the defense's bebet is you can become distracted. it's to try to hold the narrative and back it up with documents. i thank you. i apologize to your parents. we'll see you soon. everyone else sticks around. still to come, donald trump again laying the groundwork in america for telling his base of supporters another lie. saying he's not willing to accept the 2024 results if he loses again.

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okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) joining us live right here at the table is our friend election and voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket mark alias, and andrew and charles are back with us. yasmin is still with us. your thoughts on the trial?

>> it's vintage donald trump. he's defiant. he is playing into contempt because he has contempt for democracy. his supporters have a contempt for democracy. so he's enjoying being contempt. from a technical standpoint, the most interesting thing, and andrew i heard you say this earlier about the cross-examination, it seems like donald trump is telling his lawyers to be on attack for just for the purpose of being on attack. there are smart arguments you can make and smart cross-examination tactics you can use where you have witnesses who apparently are lawyers, who traffic any number of things, but it seems like donald trump just wants his lawyers to attack. he's lost cress blt with the judge, as i think you pointed out in earlier days when the judge said that. he's losing credibility with the jury, where he just the lawyers are being told to go on one speed. >> that's his political acumen

as well. his staff is told to keep everybody out who didn't believe in the big lie. it's sort of unsurprising. >> that's exactly right. i think donald trump has made a fundamental calculation that his get out of jail free card is winning the election. and i'm not sure what he's doing now is going to help him win the election, but it's the one thing he knows how to do. which is to defy democracy, which is to defame democracy, be in contempt of democracy. i think it is not a coincidence in the middle of this trial gives an interview in which he once again repeats the big lie about 2020, but tells us that he won't necessarily respect the outcome of the 2024 election. >> right. that's the other ripple in the country is he's already signaling to his base seven months ahead of an election only if he wins is it a good election.

>> that's right. as desperate as donald trump was in 2020, to stay in office and he was desperate enough to have launched an attack on voting, attack on democracy, attack on judges and finally a violent insurrection at the nation's capitol, he's more desperate now. he may not have the trappings of office and makes him slightly less danger, but he's much more radicalized. if you hear the language he uses, and by the way, if you look at the behavior of other republicans. they are more bought in on election denialism than they were four years ago. >> the other piece that is in play this time around is putin is much more desperate. he's losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the battle thefield in ukraine. and the republican base, you have an example in this trial where you have rubio and cruz, who we know from pecker, they would call and would smear them.

they are trump supporters for 2024. >> the first witness, the one not attacked the way davidson was attacked, announces that the plan he had with donald trump, not with michael cohen, with donald trump was to make up stories and embellish stories about donald trump's political adversaries. this is somebody in the media. this is not normal. this is like everyone does it. they don't do it. this is absolutely -- skip russian collusion. this is tactics of autocratic regimes. there's no free press. you don't have msnbc and journalism. you do not have the "new york times." this is just an operation of a candidate. only because of fox news do we even think, oh, this is hyperbole or normalized. it's not.

this is so abnormal to a democracy. >> that's also why the contrast of the trial is so apparent. because to mark's point, on the political end, you're talking about someone who has literally an entire party of enablers. and beyond his supporters, they have sort of pushed his rhetoric, they bought in, they drank the kool laid. so it does seem on the outside world at least on his relatively normal for him to continue to be an election denier. he has an entire party, a major political party of enablers. now you're in court in the real world. and you're having to deal with the justice system where there are boundaries and truth matters. it's the first time in a long time that donald trump and anyone around him has had to deal with the element of undies putable truth. >> and it's like the star wars bar. they are in the star wars bar. we are so normal. they leave the star wars bar, whoa, why is everyone looking at

us. >> i thought of john and his faik name. he would call around to the tabloids and spread disinformation about people he didn't like. and he would also say great things about himself. he's the father of fake news. we have known that for awhile. it was just brought into stark focus for us with david pecker when we actually heard the deal he had with the national inquirer. these people that he was smearing, his opponents are now in line supporting him. if you were to present a movie script, i don't think people would buy it. it's too unreal. >> the work has to be understanding -- i remember your first stories about his taxes. the question was is it illegal. mitt romney said he's the first nominee to not release his taxes. he's so successfully moved the

window that stories about cruz and rubio still supporting him after pecker revealed it was part of the plan to smear them. >> we need to be prepared as we get closer and closer to the fall that this is a man who will do absolutely anything to win. and his base will go along with him, but more importantly, the ted cruzs, the marco rubios, there's no line he can cross. and if he thought that being held in contempt was hurting him politically, hen wouldn't be being held in contempt. he thinks it's helping him. his party is supporting them. he wants to build a narrative that being in contempt violating, the law is actually the noble thing. that's why he has the january 6th courts at the beginning of all the rallies, which was really shocking. now it's like, oh why wouldn't you have it. >> it's on his play list.

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to become a guardian of liberty. donald trump ever sat down in court today where prosecutors have accused him of trying to interfere in his presidential

election, the ex president gave an interview about this year's election where he refuses to accept the results, only, quote, if everything is honest." trump telling the milwaukee journal he thinks he won wisconsin in 2020, despite any evidence, after he tried to disqualify hundreds of thousands of votes there. he didn't answer the question if he trusts two recounts he paid to conduct. we're back. the games of relativity are dangerous when it comes to trump. how do you -- what are you seeing as markers of his anti-democratic, election denialism on the calendar? >> in 2020 i litigated hundreds of cases after the election. by the way the evidence that he lost in wisconsin is that court

after court after court said he lost in wisconsin. he did a recount in wisconsin and lost. he did two recounts in georgia and lost. he lost. okay. what we're seeing this year is much more litigation by republicans, the rnc and his supporters to attack the mechanics and machinery of elections. what do i mean by that? you can attack voters and make it harder to vote. certainly they're trying to do that. we're seeing more litigation going at how votes are going to be counted, how elections are going to be won. in arizona there's two lawsuit toss throw out the election procedural manual which is literally the rule book. they want chaos by throwing out the rule book. we have seen three lawsuits by republicans and their allies to try to strike down laws to allow

harassment of election officials. >> to eliminate the law that is protect them? >> yes. >> it's so trumpian. what is the legal argument for that? >> they believe a first amendment right to harass election officials. these are lawsuits that have been filed in arizona, minnesota and nevada. the nevada one has been dismissed. i expect they'll lose in the other two states. the l.a. times did a profile on a crew that wants to sow chaos by bringing lawsuits around the country. we saw the supreme court last term, not this term, last term deal with the fringe legislative theory which would divest state courts of being able to apply their state constitution. the pennsylvania republicans have brought another isl challenge they're seeking to get before the supreme court. >> what is the end game?

is it so on election day there is no winner? >> yeah. i think they know the following things. they know there's no chance donald trump winning the majority of the popular vote. he lost to hillary clinton by 3 million votes. joe biden by 7 million votes. let's say in 2024 it's 10 million votes. they're running out of runway to win the per sway shon game. at this point they want to create categories of doubt. they want to say there's 60,000 ballots here that should have been purged. there's 30,000 ballots that were counted irregularly. when the election is over, so they have more to work with. after 2020 they had mythical creatures to work with. >> and rudy's hair dye. >> what they want to do is say we have a first amendment right.

we brought a first amendment challenge. it was lost. as a result it's all being rigged behind the scenes. they want to say we brought purged lawsuits and voter challenge lawsuits and those didn't win. we though who those voters are that shouldn't be allowed to vote. it's not disconnected to what we see in the courtroom in new york. it is all premised on the idea that donald trump can sell to enough republicans, not just the grassroots, but republican elites, the senators, the members of congress, the governors, that somehow he is the victim here. somehow he is the one being wronged. in that respect this criminal case is important to him because it's a road test of how can i violate court orders, how can i attack jurors, how can i attack witnesses, how can i show disregard for the legal process now so that when we get to the election game, what -- when he then wants to show disregard to

the legal system, there's grievement built up. >> it's why he's gone to war and to the supreme court. he doesn't want to stand trial for the federal charges. >> one way to connect more to what's going on in court to the larger themes you just articulated is anti-democracy, which is the theme -- the true theme of the new york case. obviously it's true of the federal case if we ever get a trial. that is what this case is about. when people were saying it's a hush-money case, but maybe we should call it election interference. the one great thing about david pecker, as horrible as he is as a person, that was about being anti-democratic, disdain for the electorate that they can be

fooled into voting. the other is the reason that donald trump wants to be as far away from actually having a trial -- the trials may help him in being indicted. the reason he doesn't want a trial is the idea that facts do not matter. you can be in your own space and never actually need to look in a mirror. that is what the trial is. the trial is a mirror looking at the actual facts. >> marco, thank you for joining us. thank you for being back at the table. sue craig, thank you for your reporting from the courthouse. we'll see you again tomorrow. andrew sticks around. up next for us more from day ten of donald trump's criminal trial. we'll look at the new violations of his gag order and show you how triggered he is by president biden who is not on trial for anything. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

♪♪ ♪♪ i had a great stretch since the state of the union. donald has had a few tough days lately. you might call it stormy weather. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. we continue our special coverage of day ten of donald trump's criminal trial, the first criminal trial of an american ex president. it began with an admission by donald trump's lawyer that president joe biden's comment this weekend at the correspondent's dinner triggered the ex president. this morning's hearing, the ex president's lawyer referenced president joe biden's comment saying it was unfair that trump couldn't respond to an attack like that from his opponent on the campaign trial. to which judge merchan said

nothing in the gag order said he can't respond to joe biden, he just can't attack witnesses in his criminal trial, which trump hasn't stopped doing at any time. the manhattan district attorney's team brought up four more instances of donald trump attacking the jury. here are those instances. >> cohen is a lawyer. represented a lot of people over the years. i'm not the only one. and wasn't very good in a lot of ways. michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. [ inaudible question ] >> he's been very nice. david's been very nice. >> he's rushing the trial like crazy. nobody's ever seen anything like this. that jury was picked so fast. 95% democrats. the area is mostly all democrat. >> it's a rush job now.

judge merchan did not immediately rule on those allegations. we'll watch out for when that comes down and bring it to you. the majority of today's court proceedings centered around storm daniel's attorney keith davidson. he was testifying to this slimy underbelly of the world of celebrity gossip and his dealings with former trump attorney michael cohen. cohen paid his client stormer daniels a $130,000 hush money payment. keith davidson discussed the back and forth he had with michael cohen about the payment. a very telling moment came when keith davidson was discussing a text conversation he had with the editor and chief of "the national enquirer," dylan howard. quote, what have we done, davidson texted. quote, oh, my god.

asked what he meant in this text, keith davidson said it was gal lows humor. there was surprise donald trump was leading in the polls and there was a growing sense that folks were ready to call the election. davidson said there was an understanding between the two of them that, quote, our activities may have in some way assisted the presidential campaign of donald trump. that is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts. msnbc political analyst tim o'brien is back at the table after being at the courthouse. also state attorney for palm beach counter florida and former top prosecutor at doj, msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. andrew, i want to come back to you on this point we were talking about in the last hour. the heart of this case is two questions, right, whether the motive exists to interfere in the election and whether donald

trump did indeed commit the fraud he's charged with. >> absolutely. and so the part of that -- we've got a very strong case that's been presented by the state, which is the motive that there was an intent to do this about the election, the money quote today, is not something that's con tro vertable. it's not just davidson saying it now on the stand, it's something he said at the time. that was sort of the theme of the day. everything he said was tied to a document. i mean, in many ways he was there almost as a reader with occasional color. but, you know, this was something you couldn't -- he could be lying up one side and down the other on everything else in the world and -- i'm not saying he is. it doesn't matter. you know what happened. so the remaining piece, though, which the state really needs to

get to -- they have time -- is to get to the part about the false business records. how does donald trump know about them? he doesn't have to have created them, but it has to be part of the scheme. that is really the key. i suspect we're going to hear about sort of how they were created and how they landed in the white house and how the checks get written. because let's written, it's not that donald trump just writes $130,000. he writes more than that. some story has to have been told to them. the invoices if they're in front of him in the white house, that's a huge amount of the answer. they lay out exactly what was going on and the falsity of the scheme. >> that's something written in this book. pomerance is nowhere near this trial. he left the district attorney's

office. going through the david pecker testimony, it's about how advanced trump is in the art of protection. pomerance writes about his role in the checks and where he writes them in the oval office. >> what you do get from this -- when i was a prosecutor -- and i'm sure you were thinking the same. what would you do if you were the defendant. you try and think like a criminal. then you also think about what would the person -- >> let's pause for a second. he's also the republican nominee. keep going. >> yes, we're down to reality. then you compare that to what would somebody do in that position the they were innocent? how would that behavior look differently? you know, i've said with respect to the tape recording -- if the jury has not heard it yet, they had the opening referring to it. there, you know, what i'm struck

with is that you don't have donald trump reacting the way an innocent person would react, which is what are you talking ability? i don't know this woman or she made up the story and what do you mean? instead his big thing is are we going to pay in cash or not? that's not what you would do. >> to which cohen says no, no, no, no, no, no. the only person i talk to like that is my children. >> because he's a child grown old. everybody talks to donald trump that way as well. when you were running the tape at the top of the show, trump when he's scared and trump when he's aggravated sounds like someone calling into a radio show bleeding about the things they're scared of. it's don from queens. this guy biden is getting under my skin. he's also doing this to his lawyers when he's not in court. they end up engaging in this performance art for him that

undermines his case and undermines his defense. it was really on display today when we were hearing a second hearing around the gag orders. it was, i think, in trump's defense team's interest to be calm, collected and specific in defending him against these claims of violating the gag order. instead, you had todd blanche being more performative than he was the last time when justice merchan warned him then you're losing all credibility with the court. today it was disastrous. i'm assuming in his real life he's a more calm, collected, sober-minded person. today he was bafoonish. >> todd blanche, tell me if these guys think they're different. michael cohen was todd blanche before todd blanche. does todd blanche think he'll be different. rudy giuliani who can't -- does

he think he's next level? >> i think typically donald trump puts his finger on people who are corruptible. he has a radar for that. there are people attracted to him for the wrong reasons because they think he was a great businessman, which he wasn't. they think he's a bona fide celebrity, which he is, but he's a celebrity for the wrong reasons. they fall into that world. i think todd blanche is a different person than michael cohen. he's like this vanilla ice cream cone being stomped on the sidewalk. michael cohen came into this -- everything michael cohen says he's almost out of a comic book grifting in new york. i don't think todd blanche is that way. >> you have evan corcoran who became a very important witness. turned over all his notes to jack smith. you do have rudy giuliani who

represented trump in mueller all the way through the election denialism. he's now bankrupt. you don't have many people who represented trump and came out better for it. >> or escaped. >> or came out better, enhanced. tacopina might be the only exception. >> he's been pushed to the side. i don't know if he'll even get paid. if you don't perform well in front of donald trump he won't pay his bills. this trade off that i'll get publicity or i'll get a good paycheck and it's worth whatever personal embarrassment, it doesn't often happen for people. >> what do you say? >> i was surprised the defense went after davidson on extortion. first off, it's highly disputable if that's true. even if it was, you know what's

not a defense to campaign finance violation, extortion. it's like playing tennis with a golf club. it's not the right equipment to use to win the game. >> why do you think they did that? >> i think donald trump wanted to go after this guy. you're sleazy. your guy is lying. you extorted me. so? from a legal matter it doesn't matter. >> what juror is thinking a tabloid and a porn star and a playmate -- isn't the story sordid? >> yeah. they're all in the dirt together. that's why it's weird trump is saying you're dirt bags. you're hanging around with these guys. this is someone you had an affair with. even if you prove that davidson is less than good, you have corroboration in the form of david pecker and in the future testimony of michael cohen. that's what they're doing. they're trying to protect michael cohen. he's the key witness and they

have flaws. now they have two witnesses that back up what he says. >> what do you make of the lawyering, andrew weissmann? >> certainly on the government side, the stateside, this is an experienced team. it shows. josh steinblast is -- it's just a pleasure as a technical matter of having been a trial lawyer, it was wonderful to see it in action, not just read it. he also at times can be charming. he had this line about they were doing something at a store, i hate to ask this, could you describe the decor. it was christmas time and over the top. it was adorable in a very high profile trial. you just sense that -- this is what he does. he's somebody who has chosen to be just a trial lawyer. you know, this is somebody who normally could be a supervisor ten times over and he just likes

being in court, and it shows. that's true of susan, matthew, it's a very solid team. this is definitely alvin bragg has put the "a" team on this. i'm not saying they're going to win. >> no. only a jury decides that. >> on the defense side it's fascinating. you have todd blanche, he was somebody at a law firm that left a law firm to have one and only one client. that's putting enormous pressure on himself in terms of a responsibility that you have as a lawyer. you're retained. you're not hired. what i mean is you're an officer of the court. he's got in trouble with justice merchan for not, according to the justice, not adhering to that obligation. you have to push back on your client. that's what you do as a lawyer. if you can't do that, you can't

go to court saying these things. you know, you don't want obviously a judge saying in any case, let alone this one, you've lost all credibility. >> which he said during jury selection, right? >> yes. then i think amil bovie, who i don't know, announced during a side bar, told the judge, this is the first cross-examination i've done as a defense lawyer. he is an experienced prosecutor. the judge said, you're doing a fine job, and that's irrelevant. i'm not cutting you breaks whether you're experienced or not. one, i think he's doing a good job. remember, as a technical matter, he has to play the hand he's dealt. would i have done the cross the way he did it today? no, but you know what, you can't try someone else's case. you know, you have to kind of be

yourself and do what you think is right. what's fascinating to me is the experienced defense lawyer at the table is susan nicholas. she's at the far end of the table. i've said this before. she's not signed certain submissions. i've never seen that. the answer to the question of why would that be, i assume she ethically did not think she could sign it. >> if it sounds like she's one of the best legal assets she has, why is she not playing a bigger role? >> speculation on my part is that she's independent and for the same reason she's not signing things -- that is such a huge tell to the judge in the case. i mean, never, ever see that. she is independent and not going to do something she thinks crosses a line. you know, i don't think it helps her that she's a woman.

to me, when i heard that mr. bovie had not ever done a defense cross and i'm sitting there and i know -- just understand in new york everyone in this world -- it's a small world. everyone knows susan nicholas is terrific. it's an oddity that she's not there. i'm not saying he didn't do a good job, but that would not be a normal choice. >> what do you think happens next after keith davidson? who do you think they'll put on as a character? >> you saw what they're basically doing which is standard. after a witness, they do a lot of collaboration through witnesses that we might say, oh, it's boring. that's not what the trial's about. >> the documents are what jurors ask to look at when you're deliberating. can you bring in that document? >> yeah, because it's hard evidence.

it gives an anchor to a case. it gives you a timeline. you know, i had doubts about this witness saying it, but he said it. for instance now with them putting on a witness that's going to talk about michael cohen's phone and the documents from it, the reason that's so important and the reason you do that not just through michael cohen because he can say it's my phone, they want it from an independent witness who said, no, we looked at that and forensically we can tell you this is the date of it. this is what was on the phone so you're not just relying on michael cohen. i think the next -- you'll sort of see this ying and yang back and forthwith other witnesses. hope hicks, i think, is certainly going to get us into some of the david pecker stuff, but also some of the white house stuff which is moving the case forward. they may call karen mcdougal and

stormy daniels. it's not technically necessary. doesn't matter whether their stories are true or not. i could see one or both of them taking the stand. the one thing i will hedge on and then i'll shut up because i'm talking too much. this team on the prosecution side did the trump organization criminal. there was a conviction case. that case went in lightning speed. when you have a really good team, the thing that you know is slim to win. if you do not need a witness, you don't put the witness on. only bad things happen from there. i said about this case, it's going to be over before we know it. >> what do you think happens next? >> i think it's a matter of each witness offering different takes on the same thing. there's this incontrovertible evidence trail that donald trump engaged in quieting two women in order to protect his reputation

and keep this stuff out of the press. then it's a matter of whether or not they can convince the jury it amounted to election fraud and tying to improperly influence the election. i have -- i don't know that we'll get that far with the jury. the other thing that keeps striking me -- well, in the last two weeks with the witnesses, particularly with david pecker and keith davidson. when you get into trump land, you're populated by a lot of different grifters who know how media power and legal power and money and relationships can be perverted. what's stunning -- it struck me when david pecker was testifying about taking damaging stories off the market, he was talking as if he was sharing dinner recipes with friends. keith davidson today he and bovie got into heated fist a cuffs around motive and whether or not he was engaging in extortion.

for the most part davidson was calmly and coolly saying what he did and didn't do. he was playing semantic games. like david pecker there's this banality of evil on what they did -- smearing people, strong arming people. that is the world donald trump has always inhabited. it's not because he accidentally fell into it. it's because he thrives on it. he lives in the muck. you're seeing the tour of the underbelly of manhattan power. >> which he brought to the white house. thank you all for starting us off. when we come back, what the disgraced ex president might be thinking and feeling as he stands trial on criminal charges in a new york courtroom. mary trump has a unique

perspective on that. later, president biden with new remarks on college protests waging around the country. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. who wants to come see the future?! get your business online in minutes with godaddy airo (woman) ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. (tony hale)your business you need verizon. get their crazy powerful network out here, and get six months of disney bundle on them! (vo) stream with six months of disney bundle on us. and watch it all on the new samsung galaxy s24+, also on us. only on verizon. a lot of new dry eye patients in my office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. millions of americans were estimated to have it. they've tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary. xiidra can provide lasting relief. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if you're allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort

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mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? move quickly through the election interference hush-money trial, there's more than one version of donald trump. there's what he project toss the base, the donald trump we're all familiar with, the one he desperately wants the world to see in which he plays a victim of political persecution and

political prosecution, where he's defiant and self-assured. then there's the other version, the private real one. the same donald trump that admitted to aides he did lose the election in 2020 before trying to overturn his defeat. this one who knew how deadly covid was and it was airborne, despite what he said to the american people. the one stripped of his bluster and vitriol. both of those donald trumps are in court together this week. as one of them gives fiery hall way speeches and lashes out against witnesses and the media, the other is forced to sit there and watch people he knows describe in sometimes uncomfortable detail an extra marital affair, hush money payments to a porn star. joining us now is mary trump, clinical psychiatrist, niece of donald trump. mary, i've been dying to talk to

you. i hang on to your every teeth and utterance on other programs. i'm just dying to know what this is like for you to watch him face some accountability. >> nicolle, it's something i despair that would ever happen. i don't want to get too excited because this is early days. and last week we heard a lot about this split screen. donald trump criminal defendant in a new york city criminal courtroom and then the supreme court hearing arguments about whether or not donald should be immune from any kind of prosecution because apparently members of the supreme court think he's a monarch or something. i think the real split screen we need to think about is donald trump, presidential candidate for the republican party, and donald trump, anti-american

authoritarian wanna be. the problem is we're seeing these are being treated as two entirely different people. it's as if the fact that he is a criminal defendant, the fact that he's committed allegedly crimes against the united states of america, have no impact whatsoever on his relevance or his standing as a candidate for the presidency. that i find really troubling because it seems that there's always a way out for him. there's always somebody willing to bail him out even if it looks like there's no escape, and that's what we saw last week. and i don't know. it worries me quite honestly that, as deep the trouble is that he's in, it may not be enough. >> mary, that's on us. that's in the framing. it's unbelievable to me that on year eight or year nine -- for me watching the trial, i

remember all those news cycles. i said with my then colleague brian williams, the day access hollywood came out, the day he attacked megan kelly. you're right, covering the trial as a thing happening to him and not him, is on us. i thought about this and the journalism that drove the coverage of him in '16, '17, '18. there's no investigative journalism that's going to unveil how autocratic he's going to be if elected. he's saying it from the podium. he's saying it in "time" magazine. what's the failure to listen to what he's saying out loud? >> this is a trend that's been happening for decades now. donald is incredibly good at pushing the envelope and pulling back -- in those rare instances

in which he gets pushback. usually what happens is he pushes the envelope, he breaks norms, he defies expectations and gets away with it. being who he is he pushes the envelope some more to see what else he can get away with. he normalizes outrageous, egregious behavior. so we're literally at the point where we say we don't need to analyze or interpret anything. it's in black and white. he's literally saying, i am going to be an authoritarian. i am going to take away women's rights. i'm going to say anything i need to say in order to get back into power. and once that happens, i will not be stopped. he has so much help in this endeavor that i think it's even more crucially important that the fourth estate step up because, as we saw last week, the supreme court certainly is

not going to. >> what advice do you have for running against him this time? >> i think that it's pretty similar to the advice i would have had in 2020, which is he needs to be relentlessly mocked at every turn. we see in the courtroom he's not handling the circumstances well. he's not handling the confinement or the fact that he has no power in this space and that's why -- another reason last week was demoralizing is because the supreme court gave him a much-needed boost. so it would be so much better if he were just forced to wallow in the consequences of his actions. we see him looking like he's falling asleep. whether or not he's falling asleep -- he's complaining about the temperature. something i don't see being paid attention to, but it's important, donald trump is there trapped in that courtroom because of what he did.

there are a lot of other people trapped in that courtroom because of what he did. he doesn't seem to care that they're also cold and tired and don't want to be there. so it's just another example of how selfish he is and doesn't care about anybody else's circumstances, even if he caused them. i think just hammering away on his weaknesses and his frailty, and i mean that psychologically, the better it is because he's been allowed to escape for so long by pretending just because he yells louder and is more forceful in his delusions and his men dasty that he's somehow more fit. >> we have to sneak in a break. i want to press you on the psychology of republican support for him. one of the things that's been revealed into this trial is how

donald trump entered into an agreement with david pecker to smear his opposing candidates, like marco rubio and ted cruz. i want your take on that. we're back in a minute with mary trump. n a minute with mary trump. [stomach growling] it's nothing... sounds like something. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion♪ ♪upset stomach, diarrhea♪ pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most.

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back with mary trump. mary, what do you think explains -- it's beyond party

over country as been accurately described to people like bill barr. it's something deeper. it's something rooted in self-loathing for men like marco rubio and ted cruz to fall in line. >> yeah. as you can imagine, i spent a lot of time thinking about this. growing up and well into my adulthood i had a specific idea of what kind of man my grandfather was. an authoritarian, patriarchal guy who worked very hard and was quite serious about his success and having an heir, et cetera. i wondered why did he pick donald? he's so unfit in so many ways. then i realized it's because i assumed that my grandfather was different from who he turned out to be. the truth of the matter is, yes, donald was useful to him in many ways, but he also liked the kind of person donald was.

that brings us to trying to figure out why tens of millions of people are willing to continue to support this person. i think we do ourselves and the future of our country a great disservice if we assume that deep down they know better or they're just voting for him because they like some of his policies, but reject the most horrible things about him. i just don't think that's true. i think they like what he has to offer across the board. i think one of the problems with the delay in the other trials is that thus far donald has been able to show his followers parts of himself that they actually like. they like what he gets away with. i think that losing to e.j., as great a victory as it was for her and women everywhere, increased his street cred with

his base. the same may be true here. >> what do you think it means the campaign conversation has to be for the next seven days to protect the country from something that isn't democratic at all? >> i think we need to start having a very serious conversation about what we want this country to be. those are conversations we never have. we take too much for granted. i think not enough people pay attention understandably. there's a lot going on. i don't think they necessarily understand what donald and his sycophants have in store for us should they succeed in november. we need to shine a very bright light on what they intend to do and who will suffer. i think we need to make a pitch for people who are in swing states and in the suburbs to

show them what the world will be like if we leave nato, if women are relegated to second class citizenship in every state in this country. >> we need to make it clear what rights we're going to lose. maybe this isn't the most important thing, but i think we need to make people absolutely sick of the idea that all of this will be happen. the dismantling of the american democracy. the undermining of our future possibilities will be in the service of one of the most awful people that's ever walked the planet. >> mary, one of the things that strikes me about, as you described this integration of his criminality and his candidacy, is that of the three sort of buckets of charged felonies, these are the only ones he's not running on. he's running on taking everything he took to mar-a-lago

and hoarding it. he said, quote, they're mine. on the insurrection he's running alongside the most violent insurrectionists who beat and hurt cops. he's not running on the story with storming daniels or karen mcdougal. why not? >> he can't because he's lied about it so long and he can't change course because that would be admitting he's wrong and he can't admit he's wrong. because of that, the lawyers made a mistake of claiming his innocence, which is a much higher bar than there would otherwise be in this kind of criminal trial. so, i think the other reason, though, it's so -- such a travesty those other trials aren't being started yet, thanks to the supreme court and aileen

cannon, is because he is able to run on those issues of being a tough guy who steals government secrets because he thinks he has the right to, or being the tough guy that instigated an insurrection mob. if people really saw the inherent dangers in allowing these kinds of behaviors to go unchecked, they might understand things very differently from the kinds of spin donald trump is putting on them without any pushback whatsoever. >> it's amazing. the person who seems to agree with that is donald trump. he's pulled out all the stops to make sure those federal trials don't happen. we have a million questions for you always. i have one more before you go. do you have any intuition in terms of how the prosecution has put together the narrative that includes the motive to cheat, the condensed timeline between

the release of the access hollywood tape and the hush money payments to stormy daniels? do you have any sense of how well that story's being told? >> as a layperson, and not an objective one, let's be clear, i think they're doing a great job. they have this extra benefit which is something i alluded to earlier. donald's defense team has its hands tied because they have to follow his instructions, which is not to the benefit of his defense. so the prosecution needs to continue to take advantage of that and press their case which will, you know, force the defense to act in ways that may well displease donald so they'll have to come back to assuage his ego, which might be good for the

candidate, but not the criminal defendant. >> mary, thanks so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, we'll switch gears to the current occupant of 1,600 pennsylvania avenue. what president biden said today about the protests that have broken out on college campuses all around our country. that story's next. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! ok, someone just did laundry... no, i add downy light so the freshness really lasts. yeah, most scented stuff gives me a headache, but this is just right. and i don't like anything. but i like this. get a light scent that lasts with no heavy perfumes or dyes. ( ♪ ♪ ) [ cellphone ringing ] phone call from the boss? sorry. outdoor time is me time. with no heavy perfumes or dyes. sticking it to the boss, that sounds fun.

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we've all seen images and they put to the test two fundamental american principles. excuse me.

the first is the right to free speech and for people to peacefully assemble and make their voices heard. the second is the rule of law. both must be upheld. >> president biden earlier today addressing the protests on college campuses as colleges across the country face growing unrest over the israel/hamas war. biden has faced pressure to respond to campus protests. while he strongly condemned the violence, as well as the intimidation of any students attending those colleges, anti-semitism and islamaphobia, he said he doesn't believe the national guard should be sent in. let's bring in mike memoli. mike, he seemed to be honoring

the sacred right to protest and this growing fear that jewish families have. what didn't seem to be there was joe biden saying we have a great history of protesting. it's something we value. it's also something we value to not traffic in anti-semitism. is that act two? >> reporter: what we saw from president biden is the kind of speech that biden allies have been telling me that he can uniquely give in this moment. there have been a number of calls within the party for the president to speak up for forcefully about this. nicolle, we talked about this in the 2020 campaign and throughout the biden presidency. this is not a team around the president that likes to engage in each and every news cycle, especially at the expense of its message. the priorities for the white house were the abortion ban in

florida, the former "time" magazine interview trump did. what we saw at ucla overnight was a tipping point. i hadn't heard this term before. the white house official said we answered the mail. we had incoming asking us to give this speech and we did it in a joe biden way. that's not to say, nicolle, the president is down playing the significance of what's happening across the country. we'll mobile day on capitol hill. that's a speech that a lot of thought is being put into. the president in particular has been deeply concerned about the rhetoric that he's been hearing as we see the reports around some of these demonstrations. he's not just concerned about the state of politics here, but concern and my colleagues at the white house are doing some great reporting, about what that means in terms of leverage with the

hostage negotiations that has been a top priority at the moment. >> there's such a clear threat for him in the launch of his campaign, about the soul of the nation was about charlottesville, about trump's sort of coalition of extremists, and his ability -- unique ability to speak out against hate. but also as someone who is on the wing to have democratic party that is an ally of law enforcement to say we can't do this at the expense of the rule of law. how much is the president driving that balancing act? >> reporter: i've been thinking what we saw four years ago at this time. remember, the murder of george floyd sparked significant protests across the country, and then president trump sought to exploit in the view of certainly the president, he said this last night, those tensions around the divide between black and blue, the law enforcement and the african american community. remember, that all took place during a pandemic. it was at that time candid joe

biden left his home for one of the first times to first witness some of the aftermath of looting in his hometown of wilmington. then to give a speech in philadelphia which he firmly stood on is side of law enforcement but called on them to build trust with african american community. and that's exactly the backdrop of what we should look at what's happening now. the president saw what donald trump said in his campaign stops yesterday, which he tried to blame joe biden for what we see on these college campuses. that's why you heard the president answer that directly today, say thing is not a time for politics, it's a time for clarity. he said, let me be clear, this is a country, yes, we are not an authoritarian country, but nor are we a lawless country. so there's a divide and balancing act that must be struck and he wanted to get that on the record today. >> mike, we'll continue to call on you as you cover this story for us. thank you for spending time with

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into the 2024 presidential election season. the survey finds 62% of election workers are concerned that political leaders will attempt to interfere with how they do their jobs. we'll stay on that. we'll be right back. on that we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times we are grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. thanks so much. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber, and this is day ten of donald trump's criminal trial. the witnesses, the receipts. today, prosecutors began by arguing the defendant should be held in contempt