you think of a lot of different things. and that's why i said, it might be better, but it has to be long term because you don't want the person looking for another job. >> because that could be corruptive in its own way. don't look for another job but think about when your time is up. wisdom from stephen breyer we might all relate to. that's part of the interview. we sat down for a full 40 minutes and shared the entire thing at msnbc.com/summit. that is the entire free interview at msnbc.com/summit. you'll see it pop up for youtube and you can watch it and enjoy the rest of it if you're interested. otherwise, i'll see you back here at 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> so i'm going to go into this trial. i'm going to sit in a freezing cold ice box for eight hours, nine hours or so. they took me off the campaign trail.

somebody just told me they never sat for such a long period of time in a courthouse before. it's ridiculous. i'm supposed to be in georgia. i'm supposed to be in new hampshire. >> a chilly and weary donald trump back in court for week two of testimony. complaining about his inability to campaign after spending his previous days off from court golfing. also tonight, trump's frightening new interview about his sinister plans if he gets back into the white house. including allowing states to monitor women's pregnancies and even send them to prison. plus, columbia university is vowing to expel pro-palestinian protesters now occupying an academic building as campus protests and police crackdowns continue across the country. but we begin tonight with week two of testimony in donald trump's hush money election interference trial. for the first time, one of trump's family members, middle son eric, joined him in the

courtroom along with some of trump's associates. it also appears trump's repeated pleas for his supporters to please come to his aid worked. with a few dozen appearing outside the court. it is unknown if any of those supposed supporters also carry a s.a.g. card, but those may be the only highlights to trump's day given what transpired inside the courtroom. most of the day was spent hearing from keith davidson, former attorney for both karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. davidson is a key player in the scheme and alleged conspiracy to pay off the two women to keep their stories about their alleged sexual encounters with trump from going public before the 2016 election. the prosecution did not just rely on davidson's testimony but also his text messages and emails from that time. text messages between davidson and the editor of the "national enquirer," david howard, dylan howard, detailed the deal made with mcdougal beginning with, i have a blockbuster trump story.

upon finalizing the agreement, howard texted davidson, quote, we're going to lay it on thick for her. davidson replied, good. throw in an ambassadorship for me. i'm thinking isle of man. today, davidson testified that his comment was something of a joke. but he sent it because he knew the deal would help trump's candidacy. the text between the two also lay out the impact of stormy daniels' re-emergence in the days following the october 2016 release of the "access hollywood" tape. davidson texted howard on october 8th, trump is f'd, with howard responding, wave the white flag. it's over, people. the next day, davidson texted, hi, the story is already out there. to which howard responded, yeah, but her talking and taking blank is the final nail in the coffin, but he's f'd already. davidson testified on how michael cohen missed deadlines to make the $130,000 payment to

daniels with davidson recalling cohen saying, what do you expect me to do? my guy is in five f'ing states today. my guy, of course, referring to donald trump. it was then davidson claims that cohen said he would just pay it himself, and that is how cohen came to pay out the money by taking out a home equity line of credit. and that also brings us to the other witnesses we heard from this morning who were brought on to authenticate various records. that included continued testimony from one of cohen's bankers, gary farro, who we started to hear from on friday. he provided the receipts on how cohen moved fast and furious less than two weeks before the 2016 election to both set up an account and complete the wire transfer to stormy daniels with keith davidson for the $130,000 in hush money. and that payment could not have come quickly enough. as davidson also presented emails stating that ten days

prior to that wire transfer, and after much delay, stormy daniels was going to cancel the settlement agreement altogether. now, someone may need to tell trump about all of these dwumpts given his eyes were closed for extended periods throughout the day. again, creating the appearance that has led to folks calling him sleepy don. but before trump started to reach that slumberred state, he was told by judge juan merchan he was being held in criminal contempt for violating the gag order because attacks on jurors and potential witnesses. while he was only fined $1,000 for each of the nine violations, merchan warned in the decision that he would not tolerate further violations of the order, and said if necessary, and appropriate under the circumstances, he would impose an incarceratory punishment on the former president. meaning jail. when the trial resumes on thursday, it will begin with another hearing over additional alleged gag order violations by

trump. joining me now is paul butler, former federal prosecutor, georgetown law professor and msnbc legal analyst, and tony schwartz, ceo of the energy project, and coauthor of donald trump's the art of the deal. thank you for being here. i'm going to start at the table with you. let's start with the gag order, paul. fines for now. jail later. if he keeps violating, donald trump did take down the offending posts. but is $9,000 a real penalty? >> not for donald trump. it's chump change. he has the biggest megaphone of any criminal defendant in u.s. history, and he uses it to disparage witnesses in violation of the gag order. maybe it makes political sense. he's got to give his followers some reason to believe that these folks like michael cohen and stormy daniels who could send him to jail or at least cause him to become a convicted criminal, he's got to give his followers a reason not to believe them. or that's in direct contradiction to what the judge

has ordered, joy. any other defendant who willfully disobeyed nine times, nine contempt sanctions, would be sitting under rikers island right now. donald trump doesn't think of it this way, but this is yet another example of him being treated differently because he's donald trump. >> absolutely. what did you think was the most substantive development today? keith davidson testifying. he was the lawyer who arranged the payments and the banker finishing his testimony about how quickly michael cohen acted to create that llc to sort of make this pretense of a company to send that money to stormy daniels. >> so as we have to remind everyone, paying hush money isn't a crime. what donald trump is charged with is falsifying business records that disguised these hush money payments. he did that 34 times koorm to alvin bragg. that's a misdemeanor, but gets bumped up to a felony if the purpose of these false business records was to try to commit another crime. alvin bragg says those other

crimes were state and federal campaign violations. and also new york tax laws. what does that mean? it means alvin bragg has to prove that this was all about the campaign. and that's what this witness helped do today. so mr. davidson was the lawyer for both stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. he testified that all of this was about the campaign. it wasn't contrary to what trump wants the jurors to think, about keeping this information from melania. it wasn't about protecting his family. he has text messages and emails to prove it. so ultimately, michael cohen is going to come and say the same thing. what bragg is hoping is that michael cohen will be the kind of most anticlimactic star witness in history because everything that cohen says, alvin bragg wants the jurors to have heard before from other witnesses. >> and it's already been coordinated with physical testimony and not just that but

also text messages, et cetera. tony, let me bring you in here. what do you make of the fact donald trump did make an adjustment today, seemingly finally having a family member in court so he wouldn't look alone. i remember being in the courtroom, he looked lonely with that empty bench behind him with no family and no one there, and secret service one row back. he looked really sort of solitary. what do you make of the fact eric trump showed up today? >> well, i imagine the family drew straws and he lost. because nobody would want to be there with him. i think it's irrelevant. i think clearly, he made that decision, the same way he makes every decision, which is how do i want it to look. as opposed to what is it really. i don't think having him there affected it one way or the other. his eyes are closed. he appears to be either sleeping or off in some sort of reverie. and the notion that this guy is having to sit there for nine

hours a day or eight hours a day is such, for him, a torture that it overshadows everything, joy, that i think is happening in the trial. this is a man who is demonstrating very clearly why he's not qualified to be president. and meanwhile, if you try to ask yourself the question, what's been a good moment for trump in this trial? you probably can't come up with one. because virtually everything, including all of the testimony today and the fact that he was found to be in contempt, have to militate against him. so i think -- i think he is putting on a spectacle. >> let me ask you this. there's reporting he's unhappy with todd blanche, his attorney. he seems very fidgety and not confident. he's a good prosecutor at the time, but he wants more

aggression out of todd blanche. he's not happy with the lack of aggression. >> well, you can't win as a lawyer for trump. particularly when you're losing. particularly when trump recognizes that this isn't going his way. whether it was this lawyer or any other lawyer, this is a really tough case to litigate. to really difficult argument to make. you have a client who is almost impossible to keep in his seat. so i think, you know, assessing his performance is kind of irrelevant. i think the issue is that trump is going to beat up on anybody who is falling short of making him look innocent in a situation in which he is guilty as hell. >> let me play a little bit, there was something interesting that happened today. they played some c-span archives. let me play a bit of what they showed in court today. >> it's a phony deal. i have no idea who these women are. i have no idea.

i have no idea. and i think you all know i have no idea because you understand me for a lot of years. okay. when you looked at that horrible woman last night, you said i don't think so. i don't think so. whoever she is, wherever she comes from, the stories are total fiction. they're 100% made up. they never happened. they never would happen. all horrible lies. all fabrications. and we can't let them change the most important election in our lifetime. >> michael cohen is a very talented lawyer. >> what do you think -- why did the prosecution play that? >> it's trump's voice in court. this is the first time the jury has actually heard what donald trump sounds like and what's he doing, he's lying. so first of all, i don't see how he takes the stand because he's going to be able to be impeached

with his lies and with his misconduct. he says he didn't cheat on his wife, and again, that's not a crime, but if he's making that assertion to try to prove his innocence or at least get the jury to find him not guilty, the jury is not going to like him very much. again, if he sticks by that statement, so then he'll be in the classic position where the prosecutors ask, were you lying then when you said it was a lie or aria lying now when you said it wasn't a lie? part of it again is to try to prevent trump from taking the stand, although in some ways prosecutors would love that because then all of this other evidence comes in. >> tony, you know, we know in the past, donald trump has paid people to show up. he did pay supporters to show up when he did his -- he paid them $50 to go to his presidential announcement. today, he has been openly whining that his protesters can't get in there. there was nobody there when i

was in except one guy ringing a bell. he got a little bit of a protest today. why does he need that? >> well, he needs anything to shore up the sense of inadequacy and emptiness that pervades his body. even outside of his awareness. so anything that could -- it's why he wants to go out and give speeches right now. not because he thinks they matter necessarily one way or the other, but because he loves to be beloved. so i actually thought, and i say this even as somebody, you know, not withstanding the fact i'm a critic of his, that was a pretty pathetic demonstration in response to being asked for all trump supporters being asked to show up at the court. i mean, what was it, two or three dozen people? these are people who had nothing to do today. but virtually, no one did show up. and i find that all fascinating. including the fact that members

of his family don't show up. really, trump has no emotional connection to anyone. including himself. and so to recognize we're looking at an extraordinary human being. it's a surreal situation. >> yeah. it is, to say the least. well said, and even an understatement. thank you both very much. and up next on "the reidout," democracy is in danger if the aforementioned trump wins, and a terrifying new interview in "time" magazine makes that clear with trump threatening to use military force to deport undocumented immigrants. allow red states to monitor women's pregnancies, and much more. "the reidout" continues after this. if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal,

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lot without saying much. "time" magazine published a new interview with trump where they asked him serious probative questions about what a second trump presidency would look like, and it's dark stuff. from a dictatorship only on day one, migrant detention camps, using the comstock act to ban abortion, and policing protesters by deploying the national guard. he told "time's" reporter than he would be willing to fire a u.s. attorney who didn't prosecutor someone he ordered. noting that it depends on the situation. he explained that obliterating the so-called deep state meant getting rid of bad people. people that have not done a good job for him. he would absolutely pardon criminals convicted of assaulting the capitol on january 6th, telling "time" that many of those people went in, many of these people were ushered in. you see it on tape, the police are ushering them in. they're walking with the police. when the reporter asked trump what he thought of americans who

found his language about being a dictator for a day or suspending the constitution contrary to american democracy, he said i think a lot of people like it. and much like the last election, when asked if he was worried about violence, trump acknowledged that it would only happen if he loses, which sounds an awful lot like a threat. joining me is anotherer kagan, senior fellow at the brookings institution and author of rebellion, how anti-liberalism is tearing america apart again, which was published today. we'll talk about it shortly. i want to talk about this "time" interview. if i had one criticism of it, robert, it was the way that they placed donald trump's plans, including letting states monitor women's abortions, monitor women's, i guess, menstrual cycles, i don't know how they would do it, and placed it against, here are the legislative barriers to that, as if there would be some normal functioning democracy with him as president. what did you make of the

interview and revolutions therein? >> i'm sorry, i have to admit i haven't read the interview although i have seen the quotes that came out of it and what you just read. i think there is a general tendency unfortunately in this country to just assume that because our system has been functioning, because the institutions have been operating for many years, that they will save us ultimately. but i think the founders of the republic could have told us that it isn't the institutions by themselves. the people have to act correctly, the people have to understand what threat exists right now from donald trump in terms of becoming a dictator. they spoke of the need for virtue, and by which they meant the people rising up to protect our system against a dictator. i don't mean rising up illegally, i mean forcing congressmen to do the right thing, et cetera. we can be very passive sometimes and hope that the institutions will save us, but i think that's a mistake.

>> yeah, i mean, i'm going to put up sort of a limited list of the things trump has said he would do in 2025. vast layoffs of civil surge nlts, replacing them with loyalists. terminating the constitution. politicizing the doj to investigate political adversaries. bomb mexce, shoot migrants. electrify the wall, no two-state solution in the middle east, end birth right citizenship, revoke student visas for cease-fire protesters, gut the epa, exit the paris climate accord, a national ban on trans care for minors, teaching what he calls patriotic education. terminate the department of education. i could go on, allowing states to punish women as they see fit, and force the comstock act to ban abortion nationwide. i mean, everything he has in here, shoot shoplifters. shoot shoplifters. federal takeovers of democratic

cities. and people hear that, see that, read that, and say i want that. what should we make of that? >> well, he was right, i don't know if it was the end of the interview, but the end of your quotation, when he was asked what he does think about violating the constitution, et cetera, and calling yourself a dictator for a day. he said the people like it. i think that's a very important point that we are not focusing enough on. this isn't just about donald trump. he does have a very powerful, very mobilized constituency that is fundamentally seeking to overthrow the fundamental liberal system that the founders created. they oppose it, they oppose it because they think that their view of the nation, they have an ethno relicious definition of the nation. for them, the nation is a white christian, for some, a white protestant nation. this is an old strain in american history, after all. this didn't just pop up.

it's just what's happened now is these people have always been around, they were part of the john birch society, part of the mccarthy movement. they were in the south in the slave years, in the south during the jim crow years, but now for the first time, certainly in many decades, they have taken control of one of the political parties, and they have a leader who is essentially determined to destroy the system for his own purposes, but what they see is the opportunity to change the system in a way that is more to their liking and therefore not consistent with what the founders intended. >> and they have corrupted, you know, this sort of ethos has corrupted the supreme court. i detect a desire to institute a kind of religious dock taught over the country from people like samuel alito, and i have talked about repealing the 20th century as a core goal of magaism. it seems like what offends them is the 20th century made what

the constitution prescribed as a small "l" liberalism, the 20th century is the great american century because it made it more real for women, for workers, for what used to be child labors, for immigrants, for black people. and they're offended by it, by the whole 20th century. >> that's right. it's important to separate that from what they talk about, they're upset about wokeness. people were upset about wokeness in the civil rights era too. many whites were upset about the civil rights movement and they regarded it as the wokeness of their time. it's true it's the fundamental elements of our system they're opposed to even though they want to say it's an excess of wokeness. i think we need to understand that it isn't just the whims of donald trump, and one of the reasons he's talking the way he talks is that his most reliable group of supporters are what i think you can't have a better word for them than white

nationalists. he ran in his first campaign, people don't remember, i think, back in 2011, when his first run for the presidency, he ran on a one issue, which was birtherism, which was basically to say the first black american president was not really an american. and in so doing, he signaled to those people that he was their representative. and they have basically chosen him as their leader, and they are essential to him because as he goes through these court trials, as he faces the various pressures that he faces in the system, he can't rely on your average, you know, mitt romney voting republican. he has to rely on these hard core white nationalists and in some cases white christian nationalists who are sticking with him no matter what. no matter what happens in the trials. >> and this is the book, we're going to talk more about it on the other side of the break. i want to get into some of your thesis which is really about these people saying they're the super patriots, but how they

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i cannot in good conscience

endorse donald trump in this campaign. >> i think there's a lot to be concerned about. i said i believe he's a threat to democracy and we should be mindful of that. >> i think it's important for people to understand that they are rolling the dice on a second trump term. >> robert kagan is back with me. the author of rebellion, how anti-liberalism is tearing america apart again. those are three republicans, mike pence, mark esper, former defense secretary, and john bolton. but a lot of republicans will sit back and let him come back in. or either be passive about it or actively vote for him again. in this book, you draw a line between the kind of straight line from the slave holding south through the 1920s. which you and i agree is the era we're kind of reliving. talk about that and why so many republicans will go along. >> well, why so many republicans go along is an interesting question. there's obviously the professional republican class, which is basically people like bill barr, who i think are basically cowards and they don't want to be expelled from the

republican community, even though barr has said very negative things about donald trump. but as far as your average republican voter, why don't -- i don't believe anymore that people don't see the threat that donald trump poses. he makes it clear every single day the kind of threat he poses. so if people are willing to support him, you can only conclude that they're just -- they don't care. you know, and i think that unfortunately, for a lot of white americans, i think that they don't think that whatever donald trump is going to be doing is going to be aimed at them. after all, he's talking about the poisoning the blood and using the military against immigrants and he's always divided america between white people and particularly white males and everybody else. so i think if you're in that category, or if you're a rich guy like jamie dimon, who basically endorsed donald trump at davos, it's because you think you're going to be okay. it's depressing to think that way, but as i note in the book,

you know, both jefferson and lincoln and others very much worried about precisely this, that the necessary sort of commitment to liberal values which is to say the values of protecting individual rights and the idea of universal rights, that commitment can waiver over time. it did waiver, when lincoln gives his famous speech in 1838, there was violence all over the place, and he lamented the loss of those values and of course within two decades you had the civil war. i do feel that we're in a very similar place right now, where people have forgotten what it is that makes our liberty special, what makes the country special. and it is the principles of the declaration of independence, which i believe trump and a significant portion of his movement are hostile to. >> and why the '20s do you focus on so much in this book? >> you know, one of the great

things that to some extent we have covered over in our history is the nature of the 1920s. you know, we think of it as the jazz age. >> the flapper era. >> and boring republican presidents that nobody can think of, silent cal, et cetera. it also happened to be a time of peak racism in the united states. and not just peak religious bigotry, et cetera. the second ku klux klan was widespread, and by the way, a very legitimate organization, politicians were happy to be members of the klan back in that day. and then there was also this thing i was talking about that's been covered over, the eugenics movement was very powerful in the united states. and they didn't just make distinction between whites and blacks and other non-white peoples. they made distinctions between white peoples, between the nordic race and the mediterranean race, et cetera. so that was a very bad time. and you know what, there are very important figures in the

trump world who say explicitly that they want to go back to the 1920s. >> you and i are both obsessed with the same era, sir. this book is -- you are speaking my inner thoughts with this, robert kagan. i believe everyone should read this book. it is super important. if you don't know the '20s, you don't know this era. thank you, sir. best of luck with the book. coming up, pro-palestinian and anti-war protests and the response has continued to escalate with columbia students now occupying an administrative building. a live report from that campus next. i was scared when i was told age related macular degeneration could jeopardize my vision. it was hard, but taking preservision was easy. preservision has the exact clinically proven areds 2 formula recommended by the nei. i'm taking control like millions of others. only purple's gel flex grid passes the raw egg test. no other mattress cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. memory foam doesn't come close. get your best sleep guaranteed.

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protests over israel's war in gaza continue to roil university campuses nationwide as netanyahu says israel will launch a military campaign against rafah even with a cease-fire deal. at columbia university in new york, protesters occupied a building overnight, flying a palestinian flag from hamilton hall. columbia warned students to stay away from campus today. the university also began suspending students who defied an order to leave their pro-palestinian encampment by monday's deadline. across the country, hundreds of students have been arrested after college presidents called police. some in riot gear and some carrying tear gas. that is certain the case at the university of texas in austin. and washington university in st. louis, where the school has

threatened students with expulsion and arrests. the st. louis post dispatch reports that students are houseless and professors are unclear about their jobs. after they were barred from washington university's campus following an anti-war protest that ended in mass arrests. joining me is nbc news correspondent antonia hylton near the columbus campus. give me the latest. >> reporter: hey, joy. well, the question that is on everyone's mind right now is what's about to happen here at this building, hamilton hall right behind me. there are about 60 people inside. students tell me they think some students are there, but we just heard from the nypd and the mayor that their belief is there are what they called anarchists, nonaffiliates, people who are not students. almost professional agitators who found their way into the protests and into this building last night. the nypd is waiting to see if columbia is going to give them permission to enter. if they do, the people inside

that building, if they're students, they're facing expulsion, but likely worse. potentially felony charges, trespassing and more. so students, faculty have been getting texts from professors for the last several hours who are worried about what might happen to students. students who aren't in those buildings who may be nearby or protesting on the steps close to hamilton hall. there is fear right now of what could physically happen to the campus community. and you know, a lot of people on all sides of the issue, from the jewish students who have felt at times unsafe on campus to pro-palestinian students and faculty, the one thing they seem to agree on is this is the fault of the administration. that at some point the negotiations, the conversations should have reached some kind of solution. we saw brown, for example, today. they closed their encampment because the school agreed to go to a vote, to discuss the possibility of divestment, to at least show the students they were going to consider these measures. then of course, we have seen the

other end of the spectrum, an immediate and almost constant police response at schools. the question is how is the administration going to handle this tonight and what is about to happen, joy. >> yeah, absolutely. we have also seen u penn and other schools have handled it very differently. nbc's antonia hylton, thank you. if anything happens, wave your hands and we'll come back to you. thank you so much. let's bring in andrew, a student at washington university in st. louis, who was arrested for protesting on saturday. tell us what happened to you, andrew. >> well, in short, i was arrested on my own campus. i was held in custody for six hours. i wasn't provided water or food, and i have since been suspended and banned from my own campus. >> what were you charged with? >> trespassing. >> were you suspended before they issued the trespassing charge? >> i was suspended about six

hours after receiving notice of my trespassing charge. >> essentially, they suspended you and said you no longer have a right to be on campus and then charged you with trespassing. >> they first charged me with trespassing and i received notice of my suspension the following morning. >> tell me why you were protesting? what was the ask of the people you were protesting with. >> our demands were clear, for the university to divest from boeing, boeing is a weapons manufacturer. it has factories in the st. louis area. and the university has maintained its relationship with the manufacturer despite student union passing a resolution opposing the university's relationship, despite multiple protests, despite walk-outs, despite art installations. this was a continuation of the protests of the university's relationship with boeing because we can find those bomb fragments in the homes of palestinians in central gaza. >> and what was the university's response to did you all request

negotiations? did you want to talk to them? >> well, when we were establishing the encampment, some elected officials showed up. and they said that they would speak with the administrators. we asked if they're going to be there, they might as well advocate for us, and dr. jill stein and two members of the board of alders attempted to speak with them, but they refused to speak with us, refused to speak with the electeds, and they remained behind police lines lounging in an arm chair with their hands behind their head. they did so as five police departments swept the camp and brutalized as many neighborhoods, friends, protesters, all of us together. >> were you surprised at how violent the reaction was? we have seen this sort of repeated at campus after campus, and each university doesn't seem to be changing the tactics. were you surprised that the arrests were pretty violent?

>> i'll say that i wasn't -- i was disappointed in the behavior of the administrators, especially as someone who had an opportunity to sit down for dinner with the chancellor, meet his family, discuss my story, learn about what drives him to be a leader. but my story and the stories of the other people on the protest and the stories of all of those coming out of gaza were enough to prevent them from sending in those police departments. >> very quickly, what happens to you next? do you have legal representation? what do you do now? >> fortunately, the st. louis community is incredibly strong. many of the arrestees have been in discussion about potential legal support and other resources. especially for the folks that have been evicted from homes on campus. >> andrew, thank you very much. please keep in touch with us so we can follow up with you. thank you. >> thank you very much. coming up next, securing the youth and minority vote is imperative for president biden to win in november. which is why vice president harris is on a tour highlighting the administration's investment

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administration investments in underserved and minority communities. >> the work we have been doing over the past three years has been focused on all of these areas and also understanding the context in which we exist, which is long-standing disparities and understanding that in spite of those who in

certain parts of our country ai want to attack dei, we understand that you can't truly invest in the strength of our nation if you don't pay attention to diversity, equity, and inclusion. >> it came as pro-palestinian and anti-atlanta cop city protesters returned to emory university's campus and as police in georgia, in athens, arrested 16 protesters for trespassing over and and comment there. vice president harris will continue her push on economic opportunity next week with a visit to detroit. driving and i was a civil rights attorney and author of a new book, the moment, thoughts on the race reckoning that wasn't and how we can all move forward. good to see you crossing the divide to come ng over to the other camp for a moment. here is the book. i want my copy signed. you are a political strategist as well as an author. the deployment of her now to the south and college campuses

and especially now, when you are seeing these campuses roiled by pro-palestinian protests, what do you make of it? >> it is necessary and i think her voice is necessary and her message is necessary. sometimes i think we will see this as we look forward to joe biden coming to morehouse college campus. it is not necessarily the message, but it is the messenger. i feel like she is being well received on these campuses. these campuses have a history of protest and i am someone who decries law enforcement involvement on college campuses because as i talked about, my father was shot by law enforcement on a college campus. so rci understand the balance o the rise of anti-semitism. i understand the fact that we don't need to see another baby being killed in gaza. i understand the outcry of these protesters. what i don't want is someone like eric adams using this as another opportunity to have a

light or another badge or another opportunity to smile in front of a camera and integrate law enforcement on college campuses. we have seen from south carolina state in 1968 to li jackson state to kent state, that does not mix. i do appreciate this administration sending kamala harris to at least have these conversations. >> do you think the morehouse visit will be as well received? >> i am interested in what happens and what i want to see from joe biden and again, shameless plug as i am talking to you and i love you, by the way, joy. i want joe biden -- i don't want him to spend dozens of minutes talking about criminal justice reform as if all we want to do is stay out of jail or make sure our loved ones are out of jail. i would like him to talk about his vision for peace throughout the world. his vision for voting rights. vi i want him to talk about the role that bakari sellers and

other black men can play to ensure my wife and my daughters have the ability to make their own decisions when he it comes to reproductive rights, because there is a role for us to play. if he gets up and to steal a soundbite from one of my good friends, brittany, if he gets up and talks about criminal justice reform for 20 minutes, i'm going to riot myself. go >> let's talk about this book because you come from a civil rights legacy. obviously talked about your father on these campuses protesting in the day and you come from a political background. what should people know roabout this racial reckoning that did not happen? what will people learn from this book? >> i want them to realize a sobering reflection of where we are and maybe it was my youthful naivete, but i believe around 2020 with the murders and covid, i thought we were on the precipice of change. i thought there would be an understanding and empathy. maybe a third reconstruction,

understanding what black folk were going through in this g period of time. we missed that moment and not only did we miss it, but i would articulate that we are going backwards. as a millennial parent was to go out and raise children. the moment started when i was crying on my network on tv, just trying to tell people and help them understand what it meant to be black in this country. it went viral. what i want people to understand from this book is we have made progress in this country, but we still have a ways to go, so it is not just a reflection of where we are, but also prescriptions of how we move forward. you may not agree with them all, but i at least want people to get off the sidelines and have a conversation. >> you have a beautiful daughter and we live in a world where your daughter has fewer rights than i did when i was born. then your mom did by the 1970s. and you have the whole south locked in abortion bands and at the same time you have referenda in florida for not just restoring abortion rights,s but even legalizing weed. there is this sort of push and

pull that rights seem to be slipping away and coming back. are you optimistic or pessimistic about where we are? >> i'm real about where we are and i articulate that as a millennial parent, i realize it is a difficult pill to swallow that we may be the first generation that does not improve the plight of the next generation and you know my father gave me something better than i inherited and i realize t i may not be able to do that for my own children. that is a tough pill to swallow. i realize that we are in a dark place, but i think king said it best, only when it is darkest can you see the stars. i believe in this nation and i want them to have a better tomorrow than they had yesterday. >> absolutely and you know, again, you have a daughter and a son, but there is this sort of meme right now this is black men are falling out of

politics, pulling away not just from the democratic party, but from participation at all. you believe that is true? >> yes and i dedicate a whole chapter. i talk about black women a lot and giving them flowers while they are living, as they should, but black men for a long time have not been t listened to. it is a clarity and all of the lights are blinking. whether or not we meet them where they are and have these conversations and listen to black male voters. i may differ from some of the analysts that come on, but this is not a race between joe biden and donald trump. it is a race between joe biden, donald trump, and the couch and there is a high probability that black men will stay at home. i am speaking directly to white progressives. look, it is not about race neutral policies. race specific solutions for race specific problems. >> this is the book. pick this up and read it so you can understand where we are now. this is one of rethe brightest brothers out there. bakari sellers, thank you