20:00 goodbye, consular services have already stopped being provided to ukrainian men abroad, what they should do, how these restrictions will continue to work, we will analyze in today's issue. bbc: i am olga polomaryuk. this tuesday, april 23 , consular services temporarily ceased to be provided to ukrainian men of winter age abroad. the first to explain this was the minister of foreign affairs, dmytro kuleba , wrote on social media: staying abroad does not exempt one from one's duties towards one's homeland. consular services are obtaining an internal or extension of the term validity of the foreign passport. entering information about incomplete. a child, the issuance of

a birth certificate, as well as assistance in the event of an emergency, but it will continue to be provided under any conditions, this is how the ministry of foreign affairs clarified. well, such a restriction is explained by the ministry of foreign affairs as future changes in the legislation on mobilization. according to the new law on mobilization, ukrainians abroad will be able to receive consular services only if they have a military id card and update their data in the tsc. but the law must come into force. on may 17, the issuing of documents was suspended. these the changes caught people by surprise when state-owned enterprises outside ukraine stopped issuing foreign passports on the same day. and this is what the ukrainians in the warsaw branch said. my relatives died in mariupol. here i am alone. many of my friends died. and all i have now is me, my documents and my arms and legs. i work as a truck driver in germany.

so i need a passport for work. i left and am here legally, and like everyone else, not everyone here is evasive, not everyone fled ukraine, some legally, all following the law, i got out, and i am against the fact that we are all now being treated as evaders, they do not want to issue a passport, they say it is a technical error, i paid the money, they are not returning it either, i am already on the way to giving up my ukrainian passport. just return the money, and on the evening of april 23 in warsaw , neither men nor women can get passports, they say in the branch of the dp document, the verification of biometric data does not work. there is information on our official website that documents are processed as usual, that is, we we accept documents, unfortunately, the documents are not issued due to technical reasons yesterday. currently, we are waiting for the system to be adjusted and... we plan

to issue documents, when it will be, we will announce official information on our website, as well as on social networks. what do they say about such innovations in europe, so far in the eu they are not saying much about the suspension of consular services. my colleague miroslava petsa, who works in warsaw, tells what is known as of now. the mood i saw in warsaw the day before is possible summarize with the word disappointment, or also frustration. and there were not only men there, i met about a hundred people there, there were also some women, all these people flew in, came to warsaw, not only from poland, but from all over europe, until recently poland was the main hub of ukrainian refugees in europe , this place was recently occupied by germany, now the second largest group of ukrainian refugees resides in pochi, and there is such a... not bad bare system of offices,

offices of state enterprises, documents which makes documents for ukrainian refugees and citizens in poland and europe, and all these people were surprised, frustrated, scared that they paid money, entered their data, but they can't get the documents back, it was not only about men, but also about women, only children up to 12 years old could get their passports, as of february 24, 2022, there were 2 million ukrainians in poland, and since the beginning of the full-scale russian invasion, approximately one million more ukrainians have arrived here, among them approximately 300,000 men of conscription age. on the eve the minister of defense of poland władysław koscheniak-kamysh said that poland will help ukraine to return men of nominal age so that they can serve in the ukrainian army, here in poland there are men with ukrainian citizenship...

the news will be shot down, of course, like a cold shower, because obviously, that if they have not yet returned to ukraine to join the army, they are not burning with the desire to do so now, but... at the same time, we know and hear statements from other countries, for example, from germany, that the berlin senate does not will ban men from living in the city, after their passports cease to be valid, germany will issue them, continue to issue travel documents, accordingly, it can be predicted that those men who believe that they are in danger in poland, possibly in which one. .. sensei forced or unwanted or legally imperfect trip to ukraine in order to get a passport in ukraine or something, will instead decide to go to germany while they have the opportunity and get a document there

with which they can travel, at least across europe, despite the fact that their ukrainian passport will no longer work, so who can these affect... according to eurostat data, in january of this year, more than 4 million citizens of ukraine who have the official status of temporary protection were in eu countries, these are those who left after the full-scale invasion of russia. among them are 860,000 men. earlier, the media wrote that approximately 650,000 men of draft age left ukraine for the eu. how many of them crossed the border as parents of many children, due to disability or other illegal, legitimate reasons, this statistic... clarifies. at the same time, many ukrainians have been living with their families abroad for many years. so what will change for ukrainians abroad? we are talking to lawyer tetyana kozachenko. ms. tatyana, congratulations, thank you for joining us.

it is now clear how men can update their data at the consulate. greetings to all. the question in the question is that, at the moment, the order of notification is circumstantial. data in tsc has not been developed, people have not been informed how it will happen, therefore with the new law force that will take place on may 18, 24, about mobilization, these procedures are only being developed, which is why this temporary suspension is effectively leaving people in the dark in terms of what is expected of them in terms of paperwork, so that they can plan your future, yes, and how should this procedure of communication, as you call it, that has not been communicated, how should it look from a legal point of view? unfortunately, from a legal point of view , everything looks sad. i would like to point out

a very important provision of the constitution, this is article 25, which says that ukraine guarantees care and protection to its citizens who... outside its borders, care and protection. we are now talking about the fact that there are two categories of people who are and may be conscripted in the territory of other countries, not ukraine. the first is that those who are there legally, have legally left ukraine, or have two citizenships, have families, loans, business, anything, have additional risks, that is, they legally left the territory of ukraine or... to, in particular, a full-scale invasion the second category of persons, which is insignificant, but it exists, are those who left illegally. so those people who left illegally are subject to administrative laws, criminal liability, and any state, and

in particular ukraine, has all institutions and all procedures in its hands, will bring people to justice. a person whose guilt is not... introduced in accordance with the established law, cannot suffer from the arbitrariness of the authorities, therefore it is extremely important that if new orders are introduced, that people correct in advance were informed in a way about what was expected of them, when it was expected of them, so that they could plan their lives, provide for anticipating the risks, because during martial law it is clear that people are extremely... suffering from the circumstances that they are in, because in the case of the impossibility of processing documents, renewing passports, for example, which have lost their validity, or the need to issue a power of attorney, etc., for

children, for parents, for the introduction of life on the territory of ukraine, it may happen that a person is no longer able to do this at the moment can do, we are talking about... men from 18 to 60 years old, and at the moment we do not know when such a procedure will work, so does ukraine, for example, have the opportunity to implement the procedures, yes, it has such an opportunity. diplomatic missions can facilitate, in particular, the implementation of such procedures, the return of men abroad. but it is extremely important that these procedures take place in a legal way, not in an orderly manner, but in accordance with the resolutions of the cabinet of ministers and the relevant legislation , in force, and that people in advance, were correctly informed about such procedures. at the moment, unfortunately, such an order is not provided for, it is being

developed, but during all this development, an extremely limited category of persons, not women, not children, namely men from 18 to 60 years of age, fall under risks and are actually deprived of care and protection of the state, in accordance with the constitution of ukraine. ms. tatyana, well , for the sake of justice, let's say that it's on the website. after all, there are certain clarifications, and citizens can familiarize themselves with them, but what powers will the diplomatic institutions, can they keep military records? my colleagues had previously asked attorney anzhela vasylevska about this. in accordance with the legislation in force until recently, men who had been abroad for more than three months were obliged to enter temporary consular registration, and consulates at that time, accordingly, took them to... military registration outside ukraine, exactly such obligations ties were,

accordingly, people had free access to the full package of consular services, in particular to obtaining a foreign passport, continuation of activities of the foreign passport through the state enterprise documents on the territory of foreign countries. and now they have no access to consular services at all? citizens of ukraine have access to consular services for any reason. conditions, but the possibility of obtaining a foreign passport outside of ukraine is limited, precisely because of these dp documents on the territory of foreign countries for men aged 18 to 60, in addition to the so-called preferential categories, if a father who falls under these restrictions arrives, he will still will be able to perform consular actions or obtain a foreign passport in the interests of the minor. child, that is, the rights of minors are not limited in any way, do not apply to these restrictions, which were adopted

on april 23. do the consulates currently have the powers of the tsk, can they perform the registration of conscripts, or is it possible that these powers will be expanded in the future? at the moment, consus has the authority to enter military records, but it is not regulated in detail, for example, the issue of... notification of the mobilization of a particular person about the need to clarify the military registration information, it is expected that changes will be made at the level of by-laws and this issue will be additionally regulated. we return to the conversation with lawyer tetyana kozachenko. mrs. tetyana, to sum it up like this, the law on mobilization should enter into force on may 18, as we have already discussed. how long does it take to normalize military registration for ukrainians abroad? perhaps it is this

term that is necessary in order to develop regulations and implement procedures for it update of data of dcrma, in tsk. therefore, let's hope that this term will be enough for the state institution to introduce all these orders, ugh, thanks to tetyan kozach. was on our air, we talked about what is changing for ukrainian men abroad after the innovations of the ministry of foreign affairs. thank you. defense ministry spokesman dmytro lazudin previously stated that men abroad will have the opportunity to update their military registration data at consular offices, as well as through an electronic cabinet. according to him, the ministry of defense does everything it is possible for the electronic cabinet to start working in june. if you want to understand the topic more, i advise you to read it. article on our website bbc.ua about restrictions on the rights of ukrainian men abroad, my colleagues have collected

everything you need to know. well, that's all for today, more stories on our website, see you tomorrow, all the best. mr. vitaly, a short pause. we are now adding viewers of the espresso channel to our conversation in a moment. good evening and glory to ukraine, this project says velikiy lviv, from this moment we are already and on the air of the espresso tv channel, we discuss all the most important events of today, the week , and what to expect in the coming months? glory to the hero, we congratulate everyone who joined us,

you viewers of the espresso tv channel, we continue the conversation with vitaly portnikov, publicist, journalist. is with us on skype, immediately after the conversation with mr. vitaly, we already have guests in our studio, where there will be a conversation, a discussion and we will touch on those topics that interest you, about which you are currently writing a lot on social networks. mr. vitaly, that's if moving on to the topic that we will discuss in the studio, of course, the story about the fact that the ukrainian ministry of foreign affairs announced that they will not temporarily issue documents to ukrainians abroad. how will this affect our relations with the countries where there are ukrainians? i think that no way, these countries will simply fulfill their, i would say, obligations to citizens that they have in the status of temporary protection refugees and that's it. i do not think that it will have any effect, because it is not part of the consular relations of a citizen with his country

their competence. the issues of each specific citizen will be resolved if this citizen finds himself without documents. here we are. we know that there is clarification in germany, i think it will be clarified in other countries, this is not about the topic at all. in addition, listen, i already have an explanation from the ministry of defense, which clearly states that there will be no summonses abroad, that after the entry into force of the new law on the mobilization of men of draft age, it will be possible to update military registration data, in particular, through the electronic cabinet , and spokesperson the ministry of defense said that it is not necessary to go to ukraine for this, but if... a person wants to defend the homeland, wants to join the defense forces, then it is clear that it is worth coming to ukraine, for those who are abroad there will be an opportunity to do it in consular institutions, as well as through the electronic office, which is currently under development, as i understand , that's all, all we have seen these days is a storm in a water bottle, this is an attempt, through

this decision of the ministry of foreign affairs, to divert attention society from some more serious problems and everything, switch, say, a negative reaction from one real problem to another unreal one, and it was successful. what do you think they can hide from us? the kind that are not hidden from us? well, let's say, people here in ukraine could negatively perceive some norms of new decisions there, let's say, they might not like the law. about mobilization, the military may not like that, and not only the military, but me too, the fact that there are no clear rules about demobilization, it is true, but now instead of discussing actual things like to ensure the mobilization process, what to do with demobilization, you and i are starting to talk about the fact that it really has nothing

to do with practical problems, because we will not issue consular documents to men abroad. and what, this is such a punishment, a whipping in the stable, well, i apologize, well, again, is there, it seems to me that the ministry of defense of ukraine explained everything clearly and clearly that these citizens should update their data according to the new law when it comes into effect in force, and it is written there, you know that by this time the military record of citizens who are abroad was optional, no one violated anything, we are now talking about the violation of people who found themselves abroad illegally, crossed the border illegally after february 2022, this is another story, i have repeatedly said that the very closing of the borders was a gross mistake of the authorities, but this is another matter, we are not talking about that, we are talking exclusively about this norm, the new law, it changes the situation, introduces military registration for citizens who

are on abroad, but this is not means that this... military registration means automatic mobilization, we keep forgetting that we have to mobilize only a few percent of those citizens of conscription age who currently live on the territory of ukraine, i am not talking about outside the territory, the impression is that all men in ukraine have already been mobilized, only those who are abroad are left, this is also not the case, you understand it, perfectly, and therefore this is a topic in general, which, i apologize, is not worth from the point of view. practical, even a discussion, but we translate it into the topic of justice, it's not fair, they ran away, well someone there obviously ran away, and now we have to serve him, well, i'm sorry, consular services, they don't choose a good person or a bad person, they choose a citizen or a non- citizen, if a citizen, they

help him , whatever it may be, if a person has committed a criminal offense up to murder and demands that the consul of his country be present, this consul comes to him in the prison in the cells. and provides services to that person there, a person who could be a serial killer, and not just run away through this, you know, kill 10 there persons, but she is a citizen of ukraine or some other country, and the consul comes to her, to drug dealers, to smugglers, to war criminals, consuls come to all of them, this is what distinguishes a state from a non-state, if the state is a tavern, then of course no one goes anywhere , the state, unfortunately, cannot choose good and bad citizens, you see, good citizens are elected as members of parliament, if people

are considered good, then it turns out that they are not so good, or a good citizen is elected as president, well, then it turns out, that he is not so good, and consular services are not for the good and the bad, moreover, i am not talking about the fact that the decision has been made until the moment when... the law of acquisitiveness, it is not for anything, i i tell you, it looks to me like some kind of propaganda move, as i analyze it, which has nothing to do with the law, nor with expediency, nor with plausibility, and what should be done, i think, said the ministry of defense, because this affairs, the ministry of defense, not the ministry of foreign affairs, the ministry the ministry of foreign affairs should provide consular services, and not pr, if it is the ministry of foreign... affairs, not a laundromat, but the ministry of defense clearly said that citizens should update their data in the appropriate period,

and we, and the state, should create a tool for this , and what the state will do next with this mass of data is a completely different topic, because citizens are not just abroad, they are returning, here i will give you a simple example, an israeli citizen, all his data... are known, if he avoids of a reservist summons, even if he is abroad, no one usually runs after him, but when he comes to israel, they approach him and say to him: such a man, you had a summons, 10 years ago, you can find out why you did not appeared, and this is an opportunity to introduce a real administrative or criminal prosecution of a person, that's all that needs to be done, and if a person is never going to return here, even to visit his mother, then how can you influence him, these are

the norms for those , who connects his future life with the country, and there are citizens who lose contact with the country, but in israel there is again such a term: a person has lost contact with the country, and then there is a completely different level of consular services, of course in this situation. but for this it is necessary that time has passed so that a person really does not need these consular services and so on they have a completely different request for consular services than people, who came there one and a half to two years ago, yes, because the citizen's connection with the country is also an absolutely real category, and all this needs to be developed, not only during wartime. in general, that it should be clear legal norms, and i repeat, the law is not for bad and not for good citizens, the law is the same

for everyone, and everyone should remember that an institution or state that violates the law in relation to certain categories of citizens , tomorrow she will break the law in relation to other categories of citizens, and the state will simply turn into an instrument of repression and contempt for one's own... and it is a shame to use military time to introduce such tools, again without discussing the moral side of the matter, because it is absolutely obvious that the illegal crossing of the ukrainian border does not look correct from a moral point of view, nor does it look from a political point of view view is correct, absolutely strangely demonstrated distrust of the citizens of ukraine with the closing of the borders, as if it is a state for... potential refugees, i say once again, i believe that this is not true, i believe that the people who in february 2022 closed such the border, or for reasons i do not understand , they thought that everything would be over in two months, and

i would lose... and now they are victims of their own short-sighted policy, or they judge ukraine and ukrainians by themselves, and think that we have one desire here , if something happens to us, take the suitcase and rest. of course, there are people who do that. i mean, if we are talking about people of draft age, etc. but for the most part, history shows that most citizens of any station tend to stay where they live, even when there is danger. ago in general. countries exist, i apologize, all european nations, non-european nations have gone through wars, crises, tragedy, if everyone 100% took and cared, then there would be no europe, so the attitude towards all of us from those who make such decisions is very strange. i am sure that if the borders had not been closed, then millions of ukrainians of draft age would have left and returned so that we would have a more efficient economy, so that we would have more effective

public diplomacy. that we did not have humiliating conversations, but i asked for permission and was not and did not come, that we would not have actors like in soviet times who go on tour and do not return, so that we would not experience all this shame, we experience this shame not because we have a war, but because we do not have a professional public administration and a society that does not realize this simple fact, and we will eat enough of this shame in the coming years. years of the russian-ukrainian war, because the authorities obviously do not know what to do with all this, and each new decision looks even more incompetent, unprofessional, populist and pr than all the previous ones combined. we thank vitaly portnyk for this extensive, emotional and professional conversation, our viewers have already seen several plans of our studio for a large discussion, the largest discussion platform in our country,

natalya and i are moving there as well. we welcome all our guests and we are ready to introduce them and start a discussion in our studio. andrian mikhalchyshyn, an expert on international issues, is with us today. we welcome you. good evening. we also congratulate taras stetske, people's deputy of ukraine for five convocations. good evening. political scientist taras rad is with us today. good evening. vasyl pavlyuk, diplomat, consul general of ukraine in ljubljana. in 2015-22, this is an important trailer. father yustin boyko, a clergyman, is also with us. congratulations. oleg mytsyk, lawyer, lieutenant colonel of justice, ex-deputy military prosecutor of the lviv and lutsk garrisons. good evening. good evening. we need everyone here in order to fully discuss this topic, which really has been shocking, surprising, and raising many questions for all ukrainians for several days. mr. portnikov said that this discussion is possible

to... about that, what to do and what to do to ukrainians abroad who were told that they were temporarily stopped submitting documents, it is not worth such a wide discussion that they say that is all, well, not that it is normal, but the problems are here as there is none. let's talk about it in this studio as well, because it is important to hear opinions, because after all, ukrainians write about it, worry about it, and we see these queues, it still needs to be explained somehow, we immediately. let's say that we also appealed to the authorities for comments, in particular, the ministry of defense really gave an explanation, and even the spokesman intended to join us on the air, but as of now there will be no such turn-on, for some reason they decided not to comment on it live, it is their right, but it is also our right to declare it, mr. pavlyuk, let's start with you, you understand , what is happening in poland, we are looking, you understand, there are

ukrainians in ukraine who look at ukrainians in poland and start simply hating those ukrainians who are not in ukraine, and this is a big problem for us, how is it all to solve, i understand that the authorities have no positive ways of solving this the question is what i heard from the dialogue with portnikov, that in fact there is one radical move, but how will ukrainian society open the borders, and what do you think ? we share these issues very much, today i returned from poland and actually met this news, an example of a person who can cross the border and returns, and actually talked to both ukrainians and poles, but this is not only in poland, it is all over europe, all over the world, but a wave has risen, a wave alone.