here's ben. it is

the coalition government in scotland collapses. what comes next for the scottish national party? and for the union?

the political game is on — will humza yousaf survive a vote of confidence, but only because alex salmond is pulling the strings? we'll be joined by liz lloyd, who was alex salmond and nicolas sturgeon�*s chief of staff. the snp msp michelle thomas. and ian murray, the shadow secretary of state for scotland. also tonight: more arrests on american campuses, as pro—palestinian protests continue. how is this going to impact the presidential election? we'll be joined by two former american ambassadors — one under trump and the other with obama. and are the proms turning populist? turns out twas ever thus. good evening. there's something about scottish politics which has a propensity

for high drama. today, the first minister crashed the coalition with the greens — a deal called the bute house agreement — before the greens could hold a ballot of their membership over whether to ditch the snp over scrapping key climate targets. thus, the snp is now a minority government. the conservatives immediately called a vote of no confidence in the snp first minister humza yousaf, and the greens, labour and the lib dems will support it. the former first minister alex salmond said that humza yousaf had developed a kamikaze instinct. so will he survive a confidence vote? or could scotland have a new first minister, and could this farago ultimately lead to early scottish parliamentary elections? nick watt is in edinburgh. what is going on? well, it was a day that started — what is going on? well, it was a day that started with _ what is going on? well, it was a day that started with an _ what is going on? well, it was a day that started with an assertion - what is going on? well, it was a day that started with an assertion of - that started with an assertion of power by humza yousaf and a day that ended with many people here wondering whether the first minister has thrown away a lot of that power.

so, early morning sacking of lorna slater and patrick harvie, the co—leaders of the scottish greens and then a meeting of the scottish cabinet, where the scottish cabinet delivered the last rites to the bute house agreement between the snp and the greens. humza yousaf�*s view was that no longer sustainable, because the scottish greens had decided to have a vote amongst their members next month about whether to keep that going. because of course the scottish government watered down some of its climate targets. after that dramatic morning, cue licking of lips by the opposition parties over the first minister's questions and listen to douglas ross of the scottish conservatives. this weak first minister _ scottish conservatives. this weak first ministerjumped _ scottish conservatives. this weak first ministerjumped before - scottish conservatives. this weak first ministerjumped before the l first ministerjumped before the green _ first ministerjumped before the green members pushed him. even his nationalist _ green members pushed him. even his nationalist colleagues don't trust him _ nationalist colleagues don't trust him i_ nationalist colleagues don't trust him i can — nationalist colleagues don't trust him. i can confirm today that on

behalf_ him. i can confirm today that on behalf of— him. i can confirm today that on behalf of the scottish conservatives i'm lodging a vote of no confidence in humza _ i'm lodging a vote of no confidence in humza yousaf. he is a failed first _ in humza yousaf. he is a failed first minister. he is focussed on the wrong priorities for scotland. he has— the wrong priorities for scotland. he has governed in the snp's interest— he has governed in the snp's interest and not scotland's and he is unfit _ interest and not scotland's and he is unfit for— interest and not scotland's and he is unfit for office. shouldn't this be is unfit for office. shouldn't this he the — is unfit for office. shouldn't this he the end _ is unfit for office. shouldn't this be the end of the road for this weak first minister?— be the end of the road for this weak first minister?_ the i first minister? first minister. the conservatives _ first minister? first minister. the conservatives are _ first minister? first minister. the conservatives are nothing - first minister? first minister. the conservatives are nothing if - first minister? first minister. the | conservatives are nothing if they're not predictable. here is an opportunity for oppositions to show what they're really made of. do they want to govern in thele national interest? do they want to come together with ideas and collaborate or play political games? and they will bejudged poorly or play political games? and they will be judged poorly on that. so, what would the scottish greens do? it take long to find out. last

ear we do? it take long to find out. last year we supported humza yousaf's appointment as first minister first minister— appointment as first minister first minister to deliver a progressive policy— minister to deliver a progressive policy package. we supported it on the basis _ policy package. we supported it on the basis that we would work together on rent controls, a ban on conversion — together on rent controls, a ban on conversion therapy, new national parks _ conversion therapy, new national parks and — conversion therapy, new national parks and action on the climate emergency. the ending of the agreement caused the delivery of those _ agreement caused the delivery of those -- — agreement caused the delivery of those —— calls the delivery of those objectives — those —— calls the delivery of those objectives into question and the scottish— objectives into question and the scottish green msps have decided that we _ scottish green msps have decided that we will support a vote of no confidence in the first minister. so, confidence in the first minister. so. how— confidence in the first minister. so, how does this confidence vote look like for humza yousaf on tuesday?— look like for humza yousaf on tuesda ? ~ , ., ., , look like for humza yousaf on tuesda ?~ ., , ., ., tuesday? well, we potentially have a --owerla . tuesday? well, we potentially have a powerpiay- let's _ tuesday? well, we potentially have a powerplay. let's look— tuesday? well, we potentially have a powerplay. let's look at _ tuesday? well, we potentially have a powerplay. let's look at the - tuesday? well, we potentially have a powerplay. let's look at the numbers j powerplay. let's look at the numbers in the scottish parliament. there are 129 msps. 63 are snp. just short

of a majority. there are 65 opposition msps and of course there is one speaker. so, if it is a straight fight between the snp and the opposition, well, humza yousaf, he would lose. but let's look at ash regan, the only msp from the nationalist alba party. she is a former snp minister, stood against humza yousaf for leader of the snp last year. now, if ash regan voted for humza yousaf it would be a tied vote. at that point the presiding officer would follow convention we believe and support the government, which means that humza yousaf would win. who will have the decisive vote it will be the leader of alba party, the father of modern scottish nationalism, alex salmond. what

nationalism, alex salmond. what im act nationalism, alex salmond. what impact could _ nationalism, alex salmond. what impact could it — nationalism, alex salmond. what impact could it have _ nationalism, alex salmond. what impact could it have on _ nationalism, alex salmond. what impact could it have on the - nationalism, alex salmond. what impact could it have on the general election? , ., , , election? even before this eventings toda in election? even before this eventings today in edinburgh _ election? even before this eventings today in edinburgh there were - election? even before this eventings today in edinburgh there were deep| today in edinburgh there were deep nerves in the snp that they could face a challenging result in the uk general election. they can see the opinion polls and that rising tide across gb for the labour party is bringing labour back in scotland. and the fear is the great success they have had in the last decade, they have had in the last decade, they lost the independence referendum, but won the general election. the fear the first past the post system for westminster was great for them 10 years ago might not be so good this time. well, let's hearfrom someone who was chief of staff for both alex salmond and nicola sturgeon, liz lloyd, who's now a specialist partner at flint global. thank you forjoining us. how do you

think humza yousaf played that today? i think humza yousaf played that toda ? ~ . think humza yousaf played that toda ? ~' ., ., ,., think humza yousaf played that toda ? ~' ., ., ., today? i think humza yousaf made a miscalculation. _ today? i think humza yousaf made a miscalculation. it _ today? i think humza yousaf made a miscalculation. it was _ today? i think humza yousaf made a miscalculation. it was the _ today? i think humza yousaf made a miscalculation. it was the right - miscalculation. it was the right thing to do to bute house agreement, but wrong to do nit a dramatic fashion. there could have been an agreement with the greens. sacking them has led to them turning on him. what would your advice have been? i what would your advice have been? i think it did need to come to an end it has run its course and it was a distraction for both parties. he couldn't wait for the greens to decide. but there have been ways to reach a negotiations. they could have taken out some legislation that they had agreed on and done that as a minority government and then agree what they disagree on and put that vote of confidence as part of an agreement as a minority government.

the greens will vote against humza yousaf. the woman that could hold the key, ash regan described humza yousaf as no great loss to the party. she is going to become key to the future of the snp and by extension alex salmond will be pulling the strings? late extension alex salmond will be pulling the strings?— extension alex salmond will be pulling the strings? we had a lot of votes of no — pulling the strings? we had a lot of votes of no confidence _ pulling the strings? we had a lot of votes of no confidence in _ pulling the strings? we had a lot of votes of no confidence in the - pulling the strings? we had a lot of votes of no confidence in the last . votes of no confidence in the last minority government and survived them all. but that was done partly by taking time. the snp could do with doing is not what they did this morning and rush into something. but step back, take a breath and see how the next few days play out. the greens are under pressure from people in the independence movement and alba will come under pressure about the idea of getting rid of an independence—supporting first minister. there is a long way to go, a lot happened today and a lot can happen in a week before this vote. but it is a shortish time table. the

nalis saying ash regan will come to humza yousaf with a set of demands in return for her support and again those demands will come from alex salmond. edi those demands will come from alex salmond. .., , , , salmond. of course they will. it is a decision that _ salmond. of course they will. it is a decision that humza _ salmond. of course they will. it is a decision that humza yousaf- salmond. of course they will. it is a decision that humza yousaf is i a decision that humza yousaf is going to have to take and the snp are going to have to take as to who do they want supporting their government and if humza yousaf decides to take the support of alex salmond and ash regan he has to think about is everyone in his party and cabinetand think about is everyone in his party and cabinet and backbenches going to be happy. he has boxed himself into a difficult position. just if be happy. he has boxed himself into a difficult position. jus- a difficult position. just if there is a vote of— a difficult position. just if there is a vote of no _ a difficult position. just if there is a vote of no confidence - a difficult position. just if there is a vote of no confidence in - a difficult position. just if there - is a vote of no confidence in humza yousaf, is it likely that humza yousaf, is it likely that humza yousaf will bluff it out or is there a moment for kate forbes? i think ou know a moment for kate forbes? i think you know any _ a moment for kate forbes? i think you know any first _ a moment for kate forbes? i think you know any first minister - a moment for kate forbes? i think you know any first minister who i you know any first minister who faces a vote of no confidence cannot stay if that vote is going to go

against him. i would expect if he thinks before the vote next week it is going to go against him, he would choose down and the snp would be faced with picking a new leader, that could be kate forbes. it is hard to see who else would want to stand for that position now. but a lot has happened today and a lot can happen in a week. the independence movement is not happy tonight, with three parties who say they support independence fighting with each other and there is a chance for people to put that back together. what if labour call a vote of no confidence in the government? ltinfoil confidence in the government? well actually patrick _ confidence in the government? -ii actually patrick harvie made clear that he would vote against the first minister in a vote of no confidence, but wouldn't vote against the government. labour want to keep quiet. this is good for them. the snp is having a difficult time and this can only benefit the labour party. this can only benefit the labour pa . . ~ this can only benefit the labour

pa . ., ~' , ., ., this can only benefit the labour pa . ., ,, i. ., ., ., party. thank you. now we are “oined by michelle — party. thank you. now we are “oined by michelle thompson * party. thank you. now we are “oined by michelle thompson from h party. thank you. now we are joined j by michelle thompson from dundee. did humza yousaf do the right thing today? i did humza yousaf do the right thing toda ? ~ ., , today? i think that he did. it is obvious there _ today? i think that he did. it is obvious there had _ today? i think that he did. it is obvious there had been - today? i think that he did. it is obvious there had been somel today? i think that he did. it is - obvious there had been some disquiet about the relationship with the greens. many snp members, including in my location had expressed their concern that the agenda seemed to be slipping too far to the greens and away from some of the core policies of the snp. it was obviously quite a turbulent moment to do it when you had first minister's questions. but i think the general sense is that to sit tight forfour weeks i think the general sense is that to sit tight for four weeks until the greens had their vote would be a very difficult time, we may well have a general election coming up soon and ifelt have a general election coming up soon and i felt that i think the first minister felt that it was the right time to do it and allow us to

regroup in readiness and move forward. ~ . , regroup in readiness and move forward. ~ ., ., , ., forward. was it for example for thins forward. was it for example for things like _ forward. was it for example for things like to _ forward. was it for example for things like to make _ forward. was it for example for things like to make sure - forward. was it for example for things like to make sure that i forward. was it for example for i things like to make sure that you might beat the tories in the north—east where where is an election where there is oil and gas. i don't think it is as low level as that. i don't mean the industry isn't very important. i think it was more across the general themes. there has been some difficult conversations taking place after the cass review in england and wales and it meant the agenda was... i cass review in england and wales and it meant the agenda was. . ._ it meant the agenda was... i wonder, there was a — it meant the agenda was... i wonder, there was a trashing _ it meant the agenda was... i wonder, there was a trashing of _ it meant the agenda was... i wonder, there was a trashing of the _ it meant the agenda was... i wonder, there was a trashing of the cass - there was a trashing of the cass review by the greens and i wonder if you any the trans agenda has been too dominating in scotland? mi; you any the trans agenda has been too dominating in scotland? my own ersonal too dominating in scotland? my own personal view— too dominating in scotland? my own personal view is, _ too dominating in scotland? my own personalview is, yes, _ too dominating in scotland? my own personalview is, yes, it— too dominating in scotland? my own personal view is, yes, it has - too dominating in scotland? my own personalview is, yes, it has been. l personal view is, yes, it has been. the snp is at its strongest with its focussing on those things that are most important to people. and

people's concerns is the economy, jobs, education, nhs and so on. and that doesn't mean to say that rights of various groups are not important, but that that becomes the focus of the government that probably is a problem. the government that probably is a roblem. ., ., i. ., problem. how do you feel about alex salmond being _ problem. how do you feel about alex salmond being puppet _ problem. how do you feel about alex salmond being puppet master? - problem. how do you feel about alex salmond being puppet master? i - problem. how do you feel about alex i salmond being puppet master? i mean, let's not aet salmond being puppet master? i mean, let's rtot get too — salmond being puppet master? i mean, let's not get too far _ salmond being puppet master? i mean, let's not get too far ahead. _ salmond being puppet master? i mean, let's not get too far ahead. i'm - let's not get too far ahead. i'm sure alba are enjoying that ash regan will have a strong position in the vote of no confidence. but that doesn't mean to say that is a situation that is going to continues. i still believe that the snp is the dominant vehicle for the independence movement and therefore moving forward from this, and getting things back on track, with the priorities of the people of scotland, allowing for that broad church, that is going to be the most important thing that i will be pushing for within the party. thank ou. now pushing for within the party. thank you- now we _ pushing for within the party. thank you- now we can — pushing for within the party. thank you. now we can joined _ you. now we can joined from edinburgh by the shadow secretary of

state for scotland, ian murray. would you have called a vote of no confidence in humza yousaf? i think it is all falling _ confidence in humza yousaf? i think it is all falling apart, _ confidence in humza yousaf? i think it is all falling apart, parliament - it is all falling apart, parliament probably does have to have its say. it is clear his own party doesn't have confidence in him and his green coalition partners don't have confidence in him and it is likely that the country doesn't have confidence in him. rather than a vote of no confidence i would have preferred to have seen an election being called at uk and scottish levels, so we can get the voters to decide whether they have confidence in this first minister and i bet the answer would be no. what about that election to the scottish parliament in two years? should this have been a vote of no—confidence in the government? it is difficult to have a bout of no—confidence in the government, you need a two thirds majority and i'm not sure that 63 snp msps would want

to bring down the government, turkeys do not vote for christmas so i don't think we will end up not in an election year but i'm not sure it will be the first minister tomorrow or next week. one of the things forgotten about this is it was kicked off by the bute house agreement, but why was it that mccance cancers are quickly when 48 hours ago the first minister said that he was right behind it, and there were rumours that stephen flynn the westminster sme leader was now making noises yesterday to his snp colleagues, and suddenly the bute house agreement is cancelled and the first minister is fighting for his political survival.- for his political survival. why is su - ort for his political survival. why is sopport for _ for his political survival. why is support for independence - for his political survival. why is support for independence so i for his political survival. why is i support for independence so solid and labour has not been able to dent that? ,., ., , ., that? the bottom line here is that we are concentrating _ that? the bottom line here is that we are concentrating on _ that? the bottom line here is that we are concentrating on the - we are concentrating on the priorities of the scottish people and every single opinion poll and attitude survey shows it as the economy, jobs, cost of living, nhs, education, public services... but

why is--- — education, public services... but why is- -- we _ education, public services... but why is... we are _ education, public services... but why is... we are concentrating l education, public services... butl why is... we are concentrating on winnin: why is... we are concentrating on winning seats _ why is... we are concentrating on winning seats in _ why is... we are concentrating on winning seats in the _ why is... we are concentrating on winning seats in the general - winning seats in the general election, so that we can win the country. election, so that we can win the count . ~ , , , . country. why is independence consistently _ country. why is independence consistently holding - country. why is independence consistently holding up - country. why is independence consistently holding up in i country. why is independence i consistently holding up in opinion polls, i'm not talking about the snp but independence, where does that come from?— but independence, where does that come from? well, i think you would have to ask— come from? well, i think you would have to ask the _ come from? well, i think you would have to ask the people _ come from? well, i think you would have to ask the people who - come from? well, i think you would have to ask the people who wish i come from? well, i think you would have to ask the people who wish to | have to ask the people who wish to support yes, but the key thing is here, when the prospect of something is further away than ever it is easier to say that you would support it when there is no battle to be had, and it is important to emphasise that nothing has really shifted since 2014, but what has shifted since 2014, but what has shifted is the priorities of the scottish people who want the scottish people who want the scottish and uk governments to work together to deal with their priorities, and it is not, at the moment, the constitution. abs, priorities, and it is not, at the moment, the constitution. a senior conservative _ moment, the constitution. a senior conservative told _ moment, the constitution. a senior conservative told me _ moment, the constitution. a senior conservative told me to _ moment, the constitution. a senior conservative told me to note - moment, the constitution. a senior conservative told me to note that l conservative told me to note that the conservative should be careful what they wish for because kate forbes is more dangerous. the thing is, kate forbes was a leadership

candidate, is more dangerous for you, also. candidate, is more dangerous for ou, also. candidate, is more dangerous for you. also-— candidate, is more dangerous for ou, also. ., , ., you, also. the bottom line is, what is dangerous _ you, also. the bottom line is, what is dangerous is _ you, also. the bottom line is, what is dangerous is that _ you, also. the bottom line is, what is dangerous is that one _ you, also. the bottom line is, what is dangerous is that one in - you, also. the bottom line is, what is dangerous is that one in six - is dangerous is that one in six people in scotland are one nhs waiting list, the education system is collapsing, nothing seems to work, they have ditched climate targets and the economy is bumping along the bottom. that is what people are talking about around the breakfast table, not the chaos in the snp and the scottish government, theyjust the snp and the scottish government, they just want the government to get on with their priorities, govern any national interest rather than party interest and stop all of this chaos at the of government. ian murray, thank you. the scenes on american college campuses are reminicient of 1968. anti—war protests protests that began at columbia university in new york demanding that companies they beleive are supportive of israel divest immedately have spread to campuses from new england, to texas to california. and at speed, since the senate agreed the $26.3 billion military aid deal for israel. like 1968, this is us presidential

year, and in 1968 richard nixon took the white house from the democrat incumbent vice president hubert humprey — something that won't be lost onjoe biden. we'll be joined by two former us ambassadors in a moment but first here's joe inwood. no right to free speech, too: powerful universities to stop investment in israel. wore a dangerous and sometimes anti—semitic movement that poses a threat to jewish students. that is the debate that started in columbia university and has now spread right across the united states. we and has now spread right across the united states.— and has now spread right across the united states. we are here first and foremost for — united states. we are here first and foremost for a _ united states. we are here first and foremost for a free _ united states. we are here first and foremost for a free and _ united states. we are here first and foremost for a free and liberated i foremost for a free and liberated palestine and we are also here to speak up about demilitarisation of our campus and campuses across the country. i

our campus and campuses across the count . ,., our campus and campuses across the count . , , country. i feel quite unsafe because a lot of them _ country. i feel quite unsafe because a lot of them can _ country. i feel quite unsafe because a lot of them can tend _ country. i feel quite unsafe because a lot of them can tend to _ country. i feel quite unsafe because a lot of them can tend to be - country. i feel quite unsafe because a lot of them can tend to be quite i a lot of them can tend to be quite violent— a lot of them can tend to be quite violent and — a lot of them can tend to be quite violent and they tend to chat a lot of anti—semitic slurs so when i come to campus _ of anti—semitic slurs so when i come to campus i — of anti—semitic slurs so when i come to campus i will hide myjewish symbols— to campus i will hide myjewish symbols for my own safety. in a minute we _ symbols for my own safety. in a minute we will _ symbols for my own safety. in a minute we will look _ symbols for my own safety. in a minute we will look at - symbols for my own safety. in a. minute we will look at the arguments but first how did it start? last wednesday protesters set up a small camp at new york's prestigious columbia university in support of palestinians, there were counter protests with some jewish students saying they felt intimidated. on sunday at an event to mark the jewish holiday of passover, president biden said this... do you condemn the _ president biden said this... do you condemn the anti-semitic - president biden said this... do you condemn the anti-semitic protest | president biden said this... do you i condemn the anti-semitic protest on condemn the anti—semitic protest on couege condemn the anti—semitic protest on college campuses? i condemn the anti-semitic protest on college campuses?— college campuses? i condemn the anti-semitic— college campuses? i condemn the anti-semitic protest _ college campuses? i condemn the anti-semitic protest and - college campuses? i condemn the anti-semitic protest and also - anti—semitic protest and also condemn— anti—semitic protest and also condemn those who don't do what is going _ condemn those who don't do what is going on— condemn those who don't do what is going on with the palestinians. then columbia university _ going on with the palestinians. trie'i columbia university cancelled all in—person classes leading to further demonstrations by academics and students. it was the day when the

pro—palestinian protests spread across american campuses. students were led away in handcuffs at new york university, at yale, at least 40 students were arrested for trespassing after they stopped traffic. there were similar scenes at harvard, and at mit. by tuesday, the protest movement had spread to the protest movement had spread to the university of minnesota and ohio state. and on wednesday they were rests at the university of southern california and more violent scenes at the university of texas and austin, where state police with the expressed support of governor greg abbott arrested dozens of students. they were accused of being heavy—handed and it has been confirmed that a fox news journalist covering the protest was also arrested. so, what do the protesters actually want? this is about more than just showing support for the palestinians. it is about trying to

force america's built a to cut financial ties, force america's built a to cut financialties, notjust force america's built a to cut financial ties, not just with force america's built a to cut financial ties, notjust with israel packed with any companies on what is called the boycott, divest, sanctions list, or bds. so follow the investments _ sanctions list, or bds. so follow the investments that _ sanctions list, or bds. so follow the investments that are - sanctions list, or bds. so follow- the investments that are complacent with is apartheid and colonisation, as well as columbia investing in companies which make the bombs. but there have been claims thatjewish students have been abused and intimidated. the editor of a columbia student magazine showed this video, film just outside the campus, in which masked men can be heard saying that the massacre of the 7th of october will be repeated. one of the most senior republicans in the land has called on the president of columbia university to resign, if she is not able to stop the protest. fist

resign, if she is not able to stop the protest-— the protest. at nyu pro-palestinian rotesters the protest. at nyu pro-palestinian protesters were _ the protest. at nyu pro-palestinian protesters were shouting, _ the protest. at nyu pro-palestinian protesters were shouting, from i the protest. at nyu pro-palestinian protesters were shouting, from the | protesters were shouting, from the river to the sea. booing this madness has to stop. this madness has to stop. organisers of these protests _ madness has to stop. organisers of these protests denied _ madness has to stop. organisers of these protests denied being - these protests denied being anti—semitic, pointing out that many taking part are themselves jewish. today, just 24 hours after being cleared up i write this, protesters were back at the university of texas, you protests sprung up including this one at the george washington university in dc. columbia has said it is meeting to find their way through his paces, but that will be easier said than done. these arguments are about something much more than campus politics, they are rooted in a decades—old conflict that has never been more divisive than it is today. joe inwood. we're nowjoined by former

american ambassador to the european union, gordon sondland. and gina abercrombie—winstanley, also a former us diplomat who served under barack obama. good evening to both of you. gina abercrombie—winstanley, are parallels with 1968 legitimate? i believe that the arrows are appropriate when you talk about young people being aware of injustices around the world from their perspective, and increased interest in trying to make the world a better place, and the approved method is through nonviolent protest. method is through nonviolent rotest. ~ ., ., method is through nonviolent rotest. ., ., method is through nonviolent rotest. ~ ., ., method is through nonviolent rotest. ., ., ~ ., protest. what you heard, as you know that there are — protest. what you heard, as you know that there are fears _ protest. what you heard, as you know that there are fears for _ protest. what you heard, as you know that there are fears for the _ protest. what you heard, as you know that there are fears for the safety i that there are fears for the safety ofjewish students. that is a real concern. of jewish students. that is a real concern. . , , concern. that is very true, and absolutely _ concern. that is very true, and absolutely has _ concern. that is very true, and absolutely has to _ concern. that is very true, and absolutely has to be _ concern. that is very true, and l absolutely has to be addressed. concern. that is very true, and i absolutely has to be addressed. no student should be feeling unsafe on a us campus, no student from any group, any background. so,

definitely, there is more guidance that needs to be given to the students about number one, how to do it i were to do it, to make sure that their voices are heard, and to ensure that they do not, that they are protesting for a morejust ensure that they do not, that they are protesting for a more just a situation in the middle east, but, because of their language that people feel is anti—semitic, that makes them feel unsafe, and from outsiders who are coming and using such language, because there protesters committed to being non—violent and not using anti—semitic language but they are not fully controlling who is participating in these demonstrations. brute participating in these demonstrations. , , demonstrations. we can 'ust see their live and i demonstrations. we can 'ust see their live and very i demonstrations. we can just see their live and very peaceful - their live and very peaceful pictures in washington. gordon sondland, you know thatjoe biden is

walking a difficult tightrope on this and there is a danger that this will carry on and expand. isn't this beyond politics? isn't there something that everyone in america stays together? pugh something that everyone in america stays together?— stays together? argh other guest is lee talkin: stays together? argh other guest is lee talking about _ stays together? argh other guest is lee talking about what _ stays together? argh other guest is lee talking about what i _ stays together? argh other guest is lee talking about what i consider i stays together? argh other guest is lee talking about what i consider a | lee talking about what i consider a false equivalence. israel is a very close _ false equivalence. israel is a very close ally— false equivalence. israel is a very close ally of the united states, and notjust— close ally of the united states, and not just from close ally of the united states, and notjust from the close ally of the united states, and not just from the standpoint of military— not just from the standpoint of military cooperation, but they are the only— military cooperation, but they are the only real democracy in the middle — the only real democracy in the middle east. in fact, israel is hard to run— middle east. in fact, israel is hard to run itself— middle east. in fact, israel is hard to run itself than most other countries _ to run itself than most other countries are hard on israel. these protests— countries are hard on israel. these protests -- — countries are hard on israel. these protests —— mac is harder on itself. these _ protests —— mac is harder on itself. these protests should be allowed under _ these protests should be allowed under the first amendment, but people — under the first amendment, but people forget that the constitution is not _ people forget that the constitution is not absolute when it comes to time, _ is not absolute when it comes to time, mannerand place is not absolute when it comes to time, manner and place of exercising your first _ time, manner and place of exercising your first amendment rights. add first of— your first amendment rights. add first of these college presidents

have let — first of these college presidents have let this run amok, they should be designating areas and rules, and if the _ be designating areas and rules, and if the rules— be designating areas and rules, and if the rules are broken, the student should _ if the rules are broken, the student should be _ if the rules are broken, the student should be physically moved and classes — should be physically moved and classes should never be disrupted. there _ classes should never be disrupted. there are — classes should never be disrupted. there are students attending these universities at great expense, trying — universities at great expense, trying to— universities at great expense, trying to get an education and do not want — trying to get an education and do not want to be involved in this political— not want to be involved in this political issue.— not want to be involved in this olitical issue. ., , , political issue. there are students attendina political issue. there are students attending these _ political issue. there are students attending these universities - political issue. there are students attending these universities at i political issue. there are students attending these universities at a l attending these universities at a rate expense to believe that the campus is a place that belongs to everybody where they should be free to exercise their right to protest. they can exercise their right to protest. — they can exercise their right to protest, unfortunately by exercising their right _ protest, unfortunately by exercising their right to protest without any guardrails around that right, and i am not _ guardrails around that right, and i am not speaking about what they are saying. _ am not speaking about what they are saying. but _ am not speaking about what they are saying, but i'm talking about the violence. — saying, but i'm talking about the violence, the harassment ofjewish students, — violence, the harassment ofjewish students, interruption of classes and so _ students, interruption of classes and so on — students, interruption of classes and so on and so forth, they are exceeding — and so on and so forth, they are exceeding their first amendment rights, _ exceeding their first amendment rights, and the college presidents

are playing right into this. according to recent polls, support for israel is pulling in seven swing states, with support dropping from 62% in november, to 51% now. does that concern you? it 62% in november, to 51% now. does that concern you?— that concern you? it greatly concerns — that concern you? it greatly concerns me, _ that concern you? it greatly concerns me, and - that concern you? it greatly concerns me, and it - that concern you? it greatly concerns me, and it is - that concern you? it greatly l concerns me, and it is largely that concern you? it greatly - concerns me, and it is largely due to the _ concerns me, and it is largely due to the media coverage of what is going _ to the media coverage of what is going on — to the media coverage of what is going on. we are talking about genocide, we are talking about innocent — genocide, we are talking about innocent women and children and men being _ innocent women and children and men being killed _ innocent women and children and men being killed in gaza, and that is true, _ being killed in gaza, and that is true, and — being killed in gaza, and that is true, and it— being killed in gaza, and that is true, and it is a terrible, terrible tragedy — true, and it is a terrible, terrible tragedy. we are not talking about why that — tragedy. we are not talking about why that has occurred. it is not occurring — why that has occurred. it is not occurring because israel is trying to defend — occurring because israel is trying to defend itself, it is occurring because — to defend itself, it is occurring because hamas has been using these people _ because hamas has been using these people as _ because hamas has been using these people as human shields, and that... i people as human shields, and that... i want _ people as human shields, and that... i want to— people as human shields, and that... i want to go— people as human shields, and that... i want to go back to gina abercrombie—winstanley in a moment, can i pick you up on that team you are blaming the media coverage rather than thinking that a lot of

these young people at university are perfectly intelligent, they can read and they can make up their own minds. i and they can make up their own minds. ., �* ~' , and they can make up their own minds. ., �* ~ , ., minds. i don't think they are reading- _ minds. i don't think they are reading- 0k. _ minds. i don't think they are reading. ok, let— minds. i don't think they are reading. ok, let me - minds. i don't think they are reading. ok, let me put- minds. i don't think they are j reading. ok, let me put that straiaht reading. ok, let me put that straight to — reading. ok, let me put that straight to gina _ straight to gina abercrombie—winstanley, what do you make of that? abercrombie-winstanley, what do you make of that?— make of that? well, i fear that my former colleague _ make of that? well, i fear that my former colleague has _ make of that? well, i fear that my former colleague has more - make of that? well, i fear that my former colleague has more faith i make of that? well, i fear that my former colleague has more faith in these college students, they are seeing things on social media and the way that was not the case in the past, and they are young, and they should be expressing themselves. again, iagree should be expressing themselves. again, i agree about the need for control, guardrails on how the protest is expressed, and of course classes should not be interrupted, but nonetheless, they have the right orbit because people, innocent people are being killed, and that is

not what the united states stands for. i not what the united states stands for. , ., ., , ,., ., for. ijust want to pick up on a olitical for. ijust want to pick up on a political point _ for. ijust want to pick up on a political point before - for. ijust want to pick up on a political point before the - for. i just want to pick up on a i political point before the finish. isn't there a danger forjoe biden in history, because in 1968, hubert humphrey, the incumbent vice president, lost to richard nixon who was regarded as being the peace candidate, so, ifjoe biden cannot get a grip on these protests, would you agree that is a greater possibility that donald trump might win? from a democratic standpoint, thatis win? from a democratic standpoint, that is a problem? there is a difficult balance that president biden has to reach. i think that he is not quite there yet. we must stand by our ally israel. we don't want to see the country attacked from others in the region. but we also want to change their behaviour. israel is held to a high standard. i won't argue with that. but they also receive the

highest support from the united states diplomatic and military and we do that because they're important to us and because we expect them to maintain that high standard. thank ou both maintain that high standard. thank you both very _ maintain that high standard. thank you both very much _ maintain that high standard. thank you both very much indeed. - today the former post office people services director angela van den bogerd, who worked for the post office from 1980 to 2020, faced her first day of question at the inquiry day of questions at the inquiry and began by saying she was truly sorry for the devastation caused to sub postmasters and mistresses, their families and friends. however, a recurring feature of the inquiry seems to be "sorry, but". she claimed she was not trying to cover up. she said she did not recall receiving an email in december 2010 informing her the horizon system could be accessed remotely, nor emails detailing the issue of remote access in 2011 and 2014. but she began with a familiar refrain — saying sorry.

saying sorry i know doesn't change what happened, but i do want to say to everyone impacted by wrongful convictions and wrongful contract terminations that i'm truly, truly sorry for the devastation caused to you, your family and friends. i hope my evidence will assist this inquiry with getting to the answers you and so many others deserve. nowjoining me in the studio are two former sub postmasters, wendy buffrey and mark kelly. thank you both for coming in. you were both there today. why was it so important that you were there, wendy? important that you were there, wend ? �* , ., important that you were there, wend? , ., , important that you were there, wendy? because i had been present at the a-rou wendy? because i had been present at the group litigation _ wendy? because i had been present at the group litigation case. _ wendy? because i had been present at the group litigation case. and - wendy? because i had been present at the group litigation case. and i - wendy? because i had been present at the group litigation case. and i was i the group litigation case. and i was in court when she was asked to leave and think about what she had said and think about what she had said and come back into the court and tell thejudge the and come back into the court and tell the judge the truth. and i wanted to see whether she would

actually tell the truth this time. but it really seems she has been coached by the same people as everybody else and she is coming out with the same things. you everybody else and she is coming out with the same things.— with the same things. you had to deal request _ with the same things. you had to deal request this _ with the same things. you had to deal request this people's - with the same things. you had to l deal request this people's services manager. you knew her. yes deal request this people's services manager. you knew her.— deal request this people's services manager. you knew her. yes and my arents manager. you knew her. yes and my parents knew — manager. you knew her. yes and my parents knew her, _ manager. you knew her. yes and my parents knew her, as _ manager. you knew her. yes and my parents knew her, as their— manager. you knew her. yes and my parents knew her, as their retail- parents knew her, as their retail line manager and parents knew her, as their retail line managerand i knew heras parents knew her, as their retail line manager and i knew her as the contract _ line manager and i knew her as the contract manager, head of area, going _ contract manager, head of area, going back— contract manager, head of area, going back in 2006. my parents knew her from _ going back in 2006. my parents knew her from 1987 to 2003. both going back in 2006. my parents knew her from 1987 to 2003.— her from 1987 to 2003. both of your arents her from 1987 to 2003. both of your parents suffered. _ her from 1987 to 2003. both of your parents suffered. your _ her from 1987 to 2003. both of your parents suffered. your mother - her from 1987 to 2003. both of your parents suffered. your mother was l parents suffered. your mother was sectioned. yourfather parents suffered. your mother was sectioned. your father had to release his pension.- sectioned. your father had to release his pension. they had to release his pension. they had to release their _ release his pension. they had to release their pension _ release his pension. they had to release their pension to - release his pension. they had to release their pension to pay i release his pension. they had to release their pension to pay the | release their pension to pay the short— release their pension to pay the shortfall — release their pension to pay the short fall. we thought it was because _ short fall. we thought it was because my mum wasn't used to computers— because my mum wasn't used to computers and we did a transfer to myself— computers and we did a transfer to myself and — computers and we did a transfer to myself and my wife. was

computers and we did a transfer to myself and my wife.— myself and my wife. was it a difficult time _ myself and my wife. was it a difficult time for _ myself and my wife. was it a difficult time for you - myself and my wife. was it a difficult time for you both i myself and my wife. was it a i difficult time for you both actually today, because i know that this has been very hard for you and you both have tried to take your lives in the past. i wonder if coming here was importantjust to past. i wonder if coming here was important just to try to see justice done? it important 'ust to try to see 'ustice done? ., , ., , ., , done? it would be lovely to see 'ustice done? it would be lovely to see justice done- — done? it would be lovely to see justice done. i _ done? it would be lovely to see justice done. i think— done? it would be lovely to see justice done. i think we - done? it would be lovely to see justice done. i think we have i done? it would be lovely to see | justice done. i think we have got done? it would be lovely to see i justice done. i think we have got a long way to go yet. but i'm hopeful. in yourself, are you stronger because of the inquiry do you think? yes. i because of the inquiry do you think? yes. , .., because of the inquiry do you think? yes. , . ., , ., because of the inquiry do you think? yes. , .., , ., ., yes. i became stronger from the high court case- — yes. i became stronger from the high court case- once _ yes. i became stronger from the high court case. once weed _ yes. i became stronger from the high court case. once weed that _ yes. i became stronger from the high court case. once weed that ruling i yes. i became stronger from the high court case. once weed that ruling in l court case. once weed that ruling in the high— court case. once weed that ruling in the high court is the time where i started _ the high court is the time where i started to — the high court is the time where i started to say i wasn't responsible for the _ started to say i wasn't responsible for the issues that were generated up for the issues that were generated up until— for the issues that were generated up until then. if for the issues that were generated up until then-— up untilthen. if you hadn't kept and ou up untilthen. if you hadn't kept and you hadn't _ up untilthen. if you hadn't kept and you hadn't done _ up untilthen. if you hadn't kept and you hadn't done something | and you hadn't done something important on your computer, putting things on to the cloud, you would have lost, you were prosecuted. i would have been prosecuted. have lost, you were prosecuted. ij would have been prosecuted. you have lost, you were prosecuted. i- would have been prosecuted. you were prosecuted? — would have been prosecuted. you were prosecuted? l — would have been prosecuted. you were prosecuted? i was _ would have been prosecuted. you were prosecuted? i was prosecuted. - would have been prosecuted. you were prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i- prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i leaded prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i pleaded not— prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i pleaded not guilty _

prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i pleaded not guilty right - prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i pleaded not guilty right up - prosecuted? iwas prosecuted. i pleaded not guilty right up until| pleaded not guilty right up until the end and then they said they would drop the theft charge if i pled guilty to false accounting. because i was afraid of going to prison i pled guilty to something i hadn't done. prison i pled guilty to something i hadn't done-— prison i pled guilty to something i hadn't done. ., ., , ., , hadn't done. how does that rest with ou now? hadn't done. how does that rest with you now? l'm — hadn't done. how does that rest with you now? i'm really— hadn't done. how does that rest with you now? i'm really angry _ hadn't done. how does that rest with you now? i'm really angry about i hadn't done. how does that rest with you now? i'm really angry about it. l you now? i'm really angry about it. we are having _ you now? i'm really angry about it. we are having another _ you now? i'm really angry about it. we are having another day - you now? i'm really angry about it. we are having another day of - you now? i'm really angry about it. we are having another day of her l we are having another day of her testimony tomorrow and then on the 22nd may we have the former ceo, pau vennels. what do you expect and will you be there? i vennels. what do you expect and will you be there?— you be there? i would like to be there, you be there? i would like to be there. the _ you be there? i would like to be there. the it _ you be there? i would like to be there, the it would _ you be there? i would like to be there, the it would nice - you be there? i would like to be there, the it would nice to - you be there? i would like to be there, the it would nice to see l there, the it would nice to see other ceos watch this and realise they can't have five or six differentjobs in big companies and still be able to concentrate on everything that is happening within that company. because they can't. you know, they have got to do the job full—time. they get paid

ridiculous amounts of money. but they're negligent, because they didn't know what was going on. haifa didn't know what was going on. how didn't know what was going on. how did it change — didn't know what was going on. how did it change your life? it _ didn't know what was going on. how did it change your life? it took - didn't know what was going on. how did it change your life? it took my i did it change your life? it took my dreams and _ did it change your life? it took my dreams and confidence _ did it change your life? it took my dreams and confidence and - did it change your life? it took my dreams and confidence and my i did it change your life? it took my i dreams and confidence and my mental health— dreams and confidence and my mental health is— dreams and confidence and my mental health is gone from it all. you lived ten _ health is gone from it all. you lived ten minutes, _ health is gone from it all. you lived ten minutes, you - health is gone from it all. gm. lived ten minutes, you live ten minutes away from angela van den bogerd. mi; minutes away from angela van den bonerd. y , .,, minutes away from angela van den bonerd. g , .,, , minutes away from angela van den bonerd. g , ,., ':: minutes away from angela van den bonerd. ':: , bogerd. my shop is about 10 minutes from where she _ bogerd. my shop is about 10 minutes from where she lived _ bogerd. my shop is about 10 minutes from where she lived and _ bogerd. my shop is about 10 minutes from where she lived and my - bogerd. my shop is about 10 minutes from where she lived and my actual. from where she lived and my actual house _ from where she lived and my actual house and — from where she lived and my actual house and the post office is about 20 minutes from where she lives at the moment. 20 minutes from where she lives at the moment-— 20 minutes from where she lives at the moment. ~ ., , ., ., ,, ., the moment. what did you make of her a olo: the moment. what did you make of her apology today — the moment. what did you make of her apology today sni? _ the moment. what did you make of her apology today sni? l — the moment. what did you make of her apology today sni? i think _ the moment. what did you make of her apology today sni? i think it _ the moment. what did you make of her apology today sni? i think it wasn't i apology today sni? i think it wasn't sincere. apology today sni? i think it wasn't sincere- she _ apology today sni? i think it wasn't sincere. she didn't _ apology today sni? i think it wasn't sincere. she didn't take _ apology today sni? i think it wasn't sincere. she didn't take i _ apology today sni? i think it wasn't sincere. she didn't take i take i sincere. she didn't take i take responsibility for the errors i made. — responsibility for the errors i made, just the harm that was caused to people _ made, just the harm that was caused

to people. in made, just the harm that was caused to --eole. .,. made, just the harm that was caused to --eole. made, just the harm that was caused to n-eole. ., ., ., , to people. in fact it was an apology but? yes. to people. in fact it was an apology but? yes- in _ to people. in fact it was an apology but? yes. in terms _ to people. in fact it was an apology but? yes. in terms of _ to people. in fact it was an apology but? yes. in terms of changes i to people. in fact it was an apology but? yes. in terms of changes to i but? yes. in terms of changes to our life but? yes. in terms of changes to your life and _ but? yes. in terms of changes to your life and whether you can work now or, how it's changed your outlook. i now or, how it's changed your outlook. ., �* ., . outlook. i don't have confidence with forms _ outlook. i don't have confidence with forms and _ outlook. i don't have confidence with forms and stuff. _ outlook. i don't have confidence with forms and stuff. i - outlook. i don't have confidence with forms and stuff. i just i outlook. i don't have confidence | with forms and stuff. ijust don't handle _ with forms and stuff. ijust don't handle any— with forms and stuff. ijust don't handle any forms or stress—related things _ handle any forms or stress-related thins. �*, handle any forms or stress-related thins. a, , handle any forms or stress-related thins. ., , ., things. through is in, through the inuui , things. through is in, through the inquiry. but _ things. through is in, through the inquiry, but there _ things. through is in, through the inquiry, but there is _ things. through is in, through the inquiry, but there is through, - inquiry, but there is through, because it was done even leading up to the drama, there was work done by journalist before that with the podcasts, it is extraordinary that since the drama 400 people came forward. �* , ., ., , forward. i'm sure there are others who are just _ forward. i'm sure there are others who are just afraid _ forward. i'm sure there are others who are just afraid to _ forward. i'm sure there are others who are just afraid to come - forward. i'm sure there are others i who are just afraid to come forward. they must. it's so important that everybody that's been affected by this comes forward. fine everybody that's been affected by this comes forward.— this comes forward. one reason --eole this comes forward. one reason people wouldn't _ this comes forward. one reason people wouldn't come _ this comes forward. one reason people wouldn't come forward l this comes forward. one reason i people wouldn't come forward was because _ people wouldn't come forward was because how they were treated in

society— because how they were treated in society when they lost the post office — society when they lost the post office. they don't want to relive it again _ office. they don't want to relive it again did— office. they don't want to relive it a . ain. , ., office. they don't want to relive it aaain. , ., office. they don't want to relive it a.ain. , ., ., ,, ., office. they don't want to relive it aaain. , ., ., , again. did that happen to you? did ou feel again. did that happen to you? did you feel that _ again. did that happen to you? did you feel that you _ again. did that happen to you? did you feel that you were _ again. did that happen to you? did you feel that you were being - again. did that happen to you? did l you feel that you were being accused and shunned? in you feel that you were being accused and shunned?— you feel that you were being accused and shunned? , ., and shunned? in the community at the time, es, and shunned? in the community at the time. yes. we — and shunned? in the community at the time, yes, we were, _ and shunned? in the community at the time, yes, we were, my— and shunned? in the community at the time, yes, we were, my wife _ and shunned? in the community at the time, yes, we were, my wife and - and shunned? in the community at the time, yes, we were, my wife and i, - time, yes, we were, my wife and i, and i_ time, yes, we were, my wife and i, and i think— time, yes, we were, my wife and i, and i think it— time, yes, we were, my wife and i, and i think it was the same with her? _ and i think it was the same with her? i_ and i think it was the same with her? ., , . , and i think it was the same with her? ,~ , her? i was lucky with my customers and family and _ her? i was lucky with my customers and family and that. _ her? i was lucky with my customers and family and that. there - her? i was lucky with my customers and family and that. there was - her? i was lucky with my customers and family and that. there was only and family and that. there was only a couple that caused issues. did these people who pointed the finger at you because they assumed they were guilty, have they apologised to you? were guilty, have they apologised to ou? ., ., you? noy no, some were saying that we... set you? noy no, some were saying that we- -- set up — you? noy no, some were saying that we--- set up the _ you? noy no, some were saying that we... set up the armed _ you? noy no, some were saying that we... set up the armed robberies - you? noy no, some were saying that we... set up the armed robberies at| we... set up the armed robberies at the time _ we... set up the armed robberies at the time. your father faced two armed — the time. your father faced two armed robberies. yes and i had two armed _ armed robberies. yes and i had two armed robberies. yes and i had two armed robberies as well. after armed robberies. yes and i had two armed robberies as well.— armed robberies as well. after the armed robberies as well. after the armed robberies, _ armed robberies as well. after the armed robberies, i— armed robberies as well. after the armed robberies, i understand - armed robberies as well. after the armed robberies, i understand the post office assumed that you would

been the ones that had removed things. my been the ones that had removed thins. ~ , ., been the ones that had removed thins. g ., ., been the ones that had removed thins. y ., ., , , things. my on armed robbery, they... after they arrested _ things. my on armed robbery, they... after they arrested a _ things. my on armed robbery, they... after they arrested a person - things. my on armed robbery, they... after they arrested a person for- things. my on armed robbery, they... after they arrested a person for the i after they arrested a person for the armed _ after they arrested a person for the armed robbery, they didn't press charges — armed robbery, they didn't press charges with the person who... took the money— charges with the person who... took the money and tried to claim the money— the money and tried to claim the money off— the money and tried to claim the money off us still. 30 the money and tried to claim the money off us still.— the money and tried to claim the money off us still. so you are there with peeple. _ money off us still. so you are there with people, other— money off us still. so you are there with people, other people, - money off us still. so you are there with people, other people, how- money off us still. so you are there i with people, other people, how much help has it been to actually see just how many of you are going through this and in a way that you're not alone?— through this and in a way that you're not alone? because... if the only people — you're not alone? because... if the only people who — you're not alone? because... if the only people who know _ you're not alone? because... if the only people who know how- you're not alone? because... if the only people who know how it - you're not alone? because... if the only people who know how it feels | only people who know how it feels are the people who have been through it, it is cathartic to spend time with other postmasters, because we understand each other. what with other postmasters, because we understand each other.— understand each other. what would ou sa , understand each other. what would you say. david _ understand each other. what would you say. david to — understand each other. what would you say, david to people _ understand each other. what would you say, david to people who, - understand each other. what would you say, david to people who, as i you say, david to people who, as wendy is saying, are still not talking about it, how would you encourage them to come forward? l

encourage them to come forward? i would say